https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX6vOYTvIp0
M : Je défie quiconque de m'apporter un verset coranique ou il est dit qu'il
faut tuer intentionnellement des innocents et qu'il faut tuer les gens du livre
(juifs et chretiens)
NM : il y en a dans les hadiths authentiques
M : J'ai dit dans le Coran et mais donnent moi les hadiths authentiques, je suis curieux de savoir tes sources
NM : Je veux d'abord vous dire que l'innocence est subjective. Selon le shariah et l'islam la homosexualité et l'apostasie sont coupables. Pour moi, un homo ou un apostat sont des innocents. Qu'en pensez-vous?
Rapporté par Boukhari et Mouslim:
«Le sang du musulman est interdit à verser, hormis dans trois cas : le marié qui commet l'adultère, l'auteur d'un homicide volontaire, et l’apostat qui délaisse la communauté.»
L'apostasie, tu penses que ça mérite la peine de mort? Et qu'en est-il du marié qui commet l'adultère?
Boukhari 6411
« Quiconque change sa religion, tuez-le. »
Sounan Abou Daoud:
D'après Ibn Abbas (qu'Allah les agrée), le Prophète (que la prière d'Allah et son salut soient sur lui) a dit: « Celui que vous trouvez qui pratique l'acte du peuple de Lot, alors tuez celui qui pratique l'acte et celui sur qui il est pratiqué (*) ».
(l'acte du peuple de Lot, ça veut dire la sodomie homosexuelle)
(Le français n'est pas ma langue maternelle. Si vous comprenez l'anglais, voici:http://sunnah.com/
C'est plus simple de trouver les hadiths en anglais qu'en français.)
M : As I said the last time to everyone you copy a little bit on the internet and you go out of context.
Either in the Qu'ran and the Bible homosexuality is a serious sin for God SWT
One of the first spiritual disasters invoking the prohibition of homosexuality in the history of humanity is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah because of the spread of homosexuality among its inhabitants. Homosexuality is clearly here called a "very serious" sin. The law of the covenant at Sinai, Moses was given directly prohibits homosexuality (with all other perverted forms of sexuality), by indirectly calling it be a cause of rejection by God of nations people the Holy Land before the Jews. This ban is so unique that it was not established a single case of its violation in the history of the Old Testament. The book of Judges tells us that something similar to what happened in Sodom happened just after the settlement of the Palestinians in the land of the tribe of Benjamin. Officials here also expect an imminent and inevitable destruction. Leviticus 20-13 The man who lies with a male as one lies with a woman: it is an abomination that both have committed, they will die, their blood is upon them.
That either the Bible or the Koran, it is said that all the people committing homosexual acts are forbidden in the kingdom of God
Now let's talk about aposthasy. you will find anywhere in the Qu'ran or hadith to kill someone for apothasy. It is strictly forbidden in Islam to impose the faith on others. Faith is something personal. Force or threats cannot bring faith in someone. The Qur'an is explicit about this:
Sura 10: 99-100
If your Lord had willed, all who are on earth would have believed. Are you then compel people to become believers? It is not for a soul to believe except by permission of God. And He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.
Moreover, God in the Qur'an tells us that the only approved competition between communities is that of good works:
Surah 5:48
[..] If God had willed, He would have made you one community. But that He may try you in what He gives you. so compete in good deeds. It Unto God of you all; He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
Surah 2: 256 No compulsion in religion. And
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH had decided that Arabia is Muslim land, anyone can practice his religion except in Mecca and Medina. Anyone can leave Islam but this same person decided to preach and try to convert other Muslims to other religions then he commits an outrage and it can be death. Only God decides if it will be Muslim or non-Muslim.
Then it was decided this because many people became Muslims by hypocrisy, have been invited into the community and after collecting some information available, they went to serve the enemy, have left the community to go to the enemy. I remind you that it was in war against Meccan polytheists.
But if we brought back to the context of today, anyone is condemned to death penalty in USA when transmits secret document as classified to the ennemi like Snowden case or the case with Wikipedia Gennings soldier.
NM : I'm not gonna argue with someone who ignores authentic Hadith. Also, i dont care about christianity, im an atheist
M :
please find the rest of the hadith who will prove you that killing is a sin except for defense
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 5:
Narrated Al-Miqdad bin 'Amr Al-Kindi:
An ally of Bani Zuhra who took part in the battle of Badr with the Prophet, that he said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I meet an unbeliever and we have a fight, and he strikes my hand with the sword and cuts it off, and then takes refuge from me under a tree, and says, 'I have surrendered to Allah (i.e. embraced Islam),' may I kill him after he has said so?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do not kill him." Al-Miqdad said, "But O Allah's Apostle! He had chopped off one of my hands and he said that after he had cut it off. May I kill him?" The Prophet said. "Do not kill him for if you kill him, he would be in the position in which you had been before you kill him, and you would be in the position in which he was before he said the sentence." The Prophet also said to Al-Miqdad, "If a faithful believer conceals his faith (Islam) from the disbelievers, and then when he declares his Islam, you kill him, (you will be sinful). Remember that you were also concealing your faith (Islam) at Mecca before."
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 6:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "No human being is killed unjustly, but a part of responsibility for the crime is laid on the first son of Adam who invented the tradition of killing (murdering) on the earth. (It is said that he was Qabil).
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 7:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
The Prophet said, "After me (i.e. after my death), do not become disbelievers, by striking (cutting) the necks of one another.
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 9:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:
The Prophet said, "Al-Kaba'ir (the biggest sins) are: To join others (as partners) in worship with Allah, to be undutiful to one's parents," or said, "to take a false oath." (The sub-narrator, Shu'ba is not sure) Mu'adh said: Shu'ba said, "Al-kaba'ir (the biggest sins) are: (1) Joining others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to take a false oath (3) and to be undutiful to one's parents," or said, "to murder (someone unlawfully).
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 10:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "The biggest of Al-Kaba'ir (the great sins) are (1) to join others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to murder a human being, (3) to be undutiful to one's parents (4) and to make a false statement," or said, "to give a false witness."
NM : I know about those hadiths. My mistake, I wasn't clear enough.I think we have a different understanding of the word ''innocent''.
Look, let me explain again. The hadiths I mentioned do NOT contradict what you just posted. You posted hadiths saying that it is a sin to kill a person unlawfully . Well, according to the prophet, sodomy and apostasy are SINS, and therefore it is LAWFUL to kill a person in case of apostasy and sodomy. Compris?
All I said was that I think, and so do many other people, that homosexual acts and being homosexual do not deserve punishment. In that respect, from my and many others' point of view, Islam advocates the killing of innocents.
The same goes for apostasy. In Islam apostasy is considered unlawful. But to me, and international law, it's not a crime.
Do you believe that apostasy and homosexual acts deserve the capital punishment? Or do you consider these innocent acts? Je voudrais une réponse à ces questions.
You don't have to read what is below, it's a confirmation of what I have said earlier.
Other hadiths saying homosexuality is wrong:
Sunan Abi Dawud -> Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet (May peace be upon him) cursed effeminate men (mukhannathan) and women who imitated men, saying: Put them out of your houses, and put so-and-so out. (that is to say, the effeminate men)
Jami` at-Tirmidhi » The Book on Legal Punishments (Al-Hudud)
Narrated Jabir:
That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "What I fear most from my Ummah is the behavior of the people of Lut ."
The same hadith about killing those who commit homosexual acts, confirmed in different books by different authors (they all say the exact same thing):
Sunan Abi Dawud ->Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Abu Dawud said: A similar tradition has also been transmitted by Sulaiman b. Bilal from 'Amr b. Abi 'Umar. And 'Abbad b. Mansur transmitted it from 'Ikrimah on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas who transmitted it from the Prophet (ﷺ). It has also been transmitted by Ibn Juraij from Ibrahim from Dawud b. Al-Husain from 'Ikrimah on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas who transmitted it from the Prophet (ﷺ).
Bulugh al-Maram -> Hudud
Ibn 'Abbas (RAA) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
"Whoever you find doing as the people of Lot did (i.e. homosexuality), kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done, and if you find anyone having sexual intercourse with animal, kill him and kill the animal." Related by Ahmad and the four Imams with a trustworthy chain of narrators.
Sunan Ibn Majah -> The Chapters on Legal Punishments
It was narrated from Ibn`Abbas that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.”
Jami` at-Tirmidhi -> The Book on Legal Punishments
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Whomever you find doing the actions of the people of Lut then kill the one doing it, and the one it is done to."
Killing APOSTATES:
Abu Umamah bin Sahl bin Hunaif narrated that on the day of siege, 'Uthman bin 'Affan stood overlooking the people, and he said:
"I swear to you by Allah! You know that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said: 'The blood of a Muslim man is not lawful, except for one of three (cases):Illegitimate sexual relations after Ihsan (having been married), or apostasy after Islam, or taking a life without right, for which he is killed.' By Allah! I have never committed illegitimate sexual relations, not during Jahiliyyah nor during Islam, and I have not committed apostasy since I gave my pledge to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w), and I have not taken a life that Allah had made unlawful. So for what do you fight me?"'
Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of Fighting [The Prohibition of Bloodshed]
Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him .'"
Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Apostates »
Narrated `Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him .'"
Muwatta Malik » Judgements
Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "If someone changes his deen - strike his neck !"...[...]
M :
In islamic country, homosexuality is a sin and a sinner if it is proved will be prosecuted and jailed. If he is repented sincerely then he will be released but if he is caught then the punishment will be death.
Now in western countries, the muslim needs to respect the law in place and if he commited murders on gays then he is guilty and must be punished.
But all homosexual will be punish in the judgment day,
About apostasy, i have already talked about.that is concerning the hypocrites who nneds to be judged and condemned when there give information to his ex-community and will be put the islamic state in danger otherwise if he is wants to be back up his religion (secular aor other religion) he is free: no compulsory in religion
NM : That last bit is not true. If a muslim leaves his religion and he does not repent--> death (or some other punishment). It's as simple as that. He is not free to remain an apostate openly.
You are right about homosexuality, though.
Anyways, it's better for a muslim to live in a muslim country where Islamic laws are upheld.
See Quran 4:97
Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination.
En français:
Ceux qui ont fait du tort à eux mêmes, les Anges enlèveront leurs âmes en disant : "Où en étiez-vous ? " (à propos de votre religion) - "Nous étions impuissants sur terre", dirent-ils. Alors les Anges diront : " La terre d'Allah n'était-elle pas assez vaste pour vous permettre d'émigrer ? " Voilà bien ceux dont le refuge et l'Enfer. Et quelle mauvaise destination !
But thanks for being honest with me, M. At least you don't lie about Islam. Respect.
M : you said it is better for a muslim to live in islamic country. Agreed but today there isn't islamic country Today there is a mix of islamic law and masonry law. Don't talk about middle east countries who are hypocrites and doesn't follow the islamic law. There will be an islamic country when it will be a caliphate and a council. Those counsillors must honests, against corruption, integrated and folow the sunna.
M2 :Il y en a aucun, tu as raison
NM : On this entire planet..not a single Islamic country!.Not a single one? .How convenient...
M : I'm afraid no. The last one was before 1917. The caliphate was manage by the othomans and the leaders of the westerns countries who are all free masons, set theirs muppets in every countries, No countries is save by this sect. the Biggest ones are USA, UK and France.
NM : Mais, tout le mond (sauf les musulmans, et les chrétien etc.) croit que les gays et les apostats sont innocents. Ils ont rien fait de mal. À cet égard, on peut dire que l'islam commande les musulmans de tuer des innocents (dans un état islamique).
M2 :
- Le judaïsme condamne à la peine de mort pour les rapports homosexuels (la Bible ne mentionne que les rapports entre hommes).
- En islam, c'est un point très flou finalement. Dans le Coran, il est fait référence au peuple de Loth : « Vous livrez vous à cette turpitude que nul, parmi les mondes, n'a commise avant vous ? Certes, vous assouvissez vos désirs charnels avec les hommes au lieu des femmes ! Vous êtes bien un peuple outrancier. » (7:80-81). En ce sens, sur le plan moral, le Coran interdit l'homosexualité (moins grave pour les femmes car pas de sodomie mais interdit quand même).
Le Prophète (saws) a condamné (dans l'idée) l'homosexualité mais n'a jamais dit quel était la sanction légale. Ce sont plutôt ses compagnons (sahaba) qui en ont débattu.
Ainsi, TOUS les hadiths traitant de cette question sont largement remis en cause par les oulémas d'hier et d'aujourd'hui.
DONC non, l'Islam ne dit pas de tuer les homosexuels. La sanction doit être divine et pas humaine. Il ne nous appartient pas, en tant qu'humains, civilisés et réflexifs, de châtier quiconque sur des interprétations erronées. C'est le meilleur moyen d'aller en Enfer... donc tu conclues bien que Daesh est la 1ère fournée à aller en Enfer. Ils font tout mal (tuer, violer, jurer, offensive et non défensive, aucune recherche d'accord... même le vendredi, même durant le ramadan et vont jusqu'à rater des prières !).
Pour les apostats, c'est un point plus délicat effectivement. Mais il est extrêmement important de savoir que le Coran s'est révélé sur 23 ans et que, de ce fait, la majeure partie des versets sont circonstanciels.
En gros, un verset pour chaque événement !
Ainsi, connaître le contexte de chaque verset fait partie de sa compréhension et de son exégèse.
Un hadith mentionné par Ibn Abbâs (il avait 13 ans... fiable ou pas ? : Le Prophète a dit : "Celui qui change de religion, tuez-le !".
Il a été rapporté par Boukhari mais pas par Muslim. Par conséquent, cet hadith est classé comme étant ahad (rapporté par une seule personne ; or, l'islam s'appuie énormément sur les témoignages (souvent 4), entre autres, d'où l'extrême difficulté à accomplir la lapidation, les exécutions, etc... en théorie hein !).
D'ailleurs, le Prophète a plusieurs fois passés des pactes avec les Quraysh (tribu polythéiste qui ont souvent tenté de porter atteinte à Muhammad (saws)) et a même parlé avec des apostats sans leur porter atteinte mais plutôt pour les prévenir de la gravité de l'acte (pas de menace, juste du renseignement... comme ce que je fais là avec toi).
Voilà, tu sais tout ! :)
M : Je défie quiconque de m'apporter un verset coranique ou il est dit qu'il
faut tuer intentionnellement des innocents et qu'il faut tuer les gens du livre
(juifs et chretiens)
NM : il y en a dans les hadiths authentiques
M : J'ai dit dans le Coran et mais donnent moi les hadiths authentiques, je suis curieux de savoir tes sources
NM : Je veux d'abord vous dire que l'innocence est subjective. Selon le shariah et l'islam la homosexualité et l'apostasie sont coupables. Pour moi, un homo ou un apostat sont des innocents. Qu'en pensez-vous?
Rapporté par Boukhari et Mouslim:
«Le sang du musulman est interdit à verser, hormis dans trois cas : le marié qui commet l'adultère, l'auteur d'un homicide volontaire, et l’apostat qui délaisse la communauté.»
L'apostasie, tu penses que ça mérite la peine de mort? Et qu'en est-il du marié qui commet l'adultère?
Boukhari 6411
« Quiconque change sa religion, tuez-le. »
Sounan Abou Daoud:
D'après Ibn Abbas (qu'Allah les agrée), le Prophète (que la prière d'Allah et son salut soient sur lui) a dit: « Celui que vous trouvez qui pratique l'acte du peuple de Lot, alors tuez celui qui pratique l'acte et celui sur qui il est pratiqué (*) ».
(l'acte du peuple de Lot, ça veut dire la sodomie homosexuelle)
(Le français n'est pas ma langue maternelle. Si vous comprenez l'anglais, voici:http://sunnah.com/
C'est plus simple de trouver les hadiths en anglais qu'en français.)
M : As I said the last time to everyone you copy a little bit on the internet and you go out of context.
Either in the Qu'ran and the Bible homosexuality is a serious sin for God SWT
One of the first spiritual disasters invoking the prohibition of homosexuality in the history of humanity is the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah because of the spread of homosexuality among its inhabitants. Homosexuality is clearly here called a "very serious" sin. The law of the covenant at Sinai, Moses was given directly prohibits homosexuality (with all other perverted forms of sexuality), by indirectly calling it be a cause of rejection by God of nations people the Holy Land before the Jews. This ban is so unique that it was not established a single case of its violation in the history of the Old Testament. The book of Judges tells us that something similar to what happened in Sodom happened just after the settlement of the Palestinians in the land of the tribe of Benjamin. Officials here also expect an imminent and inevitable destruction. Leviticus 20-13 The man who lies with a male as one lies with a woman: it is an abomination that both have committed, they will die, their blood is upon them.
That either the Bible or the Koran, it is said that all the people committing homosexual acts are forbidden in the kingdom of God
Now let's talk about aposthasy. you will find anywhere in the Qu'ran or hadith to kill someone for apothasy. It is strictly forbidden in Islam to impose the faith on others. Faith is something personal. Force or threats cannot bring faith in someone. The Qur'an is explicit about this:
Sura 10: 99-100
If your Lord had willed, all who are on earth would have believed. Are you then compel people to become believers? It is not for a soul to believe except by permission of God. And He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.
Moreover, God in the Qur'an tells us that the only approved competition between communities is that of good works:
Surah 5:48
[..] If God had willed, He would have made you one community. But that He may try you in what He gives you. so compete in good deeds. It Unto God of you all; He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
Surah 2: 256 No compulsion in religion. And
The Prophet Muhammad PBUH had decided that Arabia is Muslim land, anyone can practice his religion except in Mecca and Medina. Anyone can leave Islam but this same person decided to preach and try to convert other Muslims to other religions then he commits an outrage and it can be death. Only God decides if it will be Muslim or non-Muslim.
Then it was decided this because many people became Muslims by hypocrisy, have been invited into the community and after collecting some information available, they went to serve the enemy, have left the community to go to the enemy. I remind you that it was in war against Meccan polytheists.
But if we brought back to the context of today, anyone is condemned to death penalty in USA when transmits secret document as classified to the ennemi like Snowden case or the case with Wikipedia Gennings soldier.
NM : I'm not gonna argue with someone who ignores authentic Hadith. Also, i dont care about christianity, im an atheist
M :
please find the rest of the hadith who will prove you that killing is a sin except for defense
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 5:
Narrated Al-Miqdad bin 'Amr Al-Kindi:
An ally of Bani Zuhra who took part in the battle of Badr with the Prophet, that he said, "O Allah's Apostle! If I meet an unbeliever and we have a fight, and he strikes my hand with the sword and cuts it off, and then takes refuge from me under a tree, and says, 'I have surrendered to Allah (i.e. embraced Islam),' may I kill him after he has said so?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do not kill him." Al-Miqdad said, "But O Allah's Apostle! He had chopped off one of my hands and he said that after he had cut it off. May I kill him?" The Prophet said. "Do not kill him for if you kill him, he would be in the position in which you had been before you kill him, and you would be in the position in which he was before he said the sentence." The Prophet also said to Al-Miqdad, "If a faithful believer conceals his faith (Islam) from the disbelievers, and then when he declares his Islam, you kill him, (you will be sinful). Remember that you were also concealing your faith (Islam) at Mecca before."
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 6:
Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "No human being is killed unjustly, but a part of responsibility for the crime is laid on the first son of Adam who invented the tradition of killing (murdering) on the earth. (It is said that he was Qabil).
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 7:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
The Prophet said, "After me (i.e. after my death), do not become disbelievers, by striking (cutting) the necks of one another.
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 9:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:
The Prophet said, "Al-Kaba'ir (the biggest sins) are: To join others (as partners) in worship with Allah, to be undutiful to one's parents," or said, "to take a false oath." (The sub-narrator, Shu'ba is not sure) Mu'adh said: Shu'ba said, "Al-kaba'ir (the biggest sins) are: (1) Joining others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to take a false oath (3) and to be undutiful to one's parents," or said, "to murder (someone unlawfully).
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 10:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "The biggest of Al-Kaba'ir (the great sins) are (1) to join others as partners in worship with Allah, (2) to murder a human being, (3) to be undutiful to one's parents (4) and to make a false statement," or said, "to give a false witness."
NM : I know about those hadiths. My mistake, I wasn't clear enough.I think we have a different understanding of the word ''innocent''.
Look, let me explain again. The hadiths I mentioned do NOT contradict what you just posted. You posted hadiths saying that it is a sin to kill a person unlawfully . Well, according to the prophet, sodomy and apostasy are SINS, and therefore it is LAWFUL to kill a person in case of apostasy and sodomy. Compris?
All I said was that I think, and so do many other people, that homosexual acts and being homosexual do not deserve punishment. In that respect, from my and many others' point of view, Islam advocates the killing of innocents.
The same goes for apostasy. In Islam apostasy is considered unlawful. But to me, and international law, it's not a crime.
Do you believe that apostasy and homosexual acts deserve the capital punishment? Or do you consider these innocent acts? Je voudrais une réponse à ces questions.
You don't have to read what is below, it's a confirmation of what I have said earlier.
Other hadiths saying homosexuality is wrong:
Sunan Abi Dawud -> Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
Ibn ‘Abbas said:
The Prophet (May peace be upon him) cursed effeminate men (mukhannathan) and women who imitated men, saying: Put them out of your houses, and put so-and-so out. (that is to say, the effeminate men)
Jami` at-Tirmidhi » The Book on Legal Punishments (Al-Hudud)
Narrated Jabir:
That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "What I fear most from my Ummah is the behavior of the people of Lut ."
The same hadith about killing those who commit homosexual acts, confirmed in different books by different authors (they all say the exact same thing):
Sunan Abi Dawud ->Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Abu Dawud said: A similar tradition has also been transmitted by Sulaiman b. Bilal from 'Amr b. Abi 'Umar. And 'Abbad b. Mansur transmitted it from 'Ikrimah on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas who transmitted it from the Prophet (ﷺ). It has also been transmitted by Ibn Juraij from Ibrahim from Dawud b. Al-Husain from 'Ikrimah on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas who transmitted it from the Prophet (ﷺ).
Bulugh al-Maram -> Hudud
Ibn 'Abbas (RAA) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
"Whoever you find doing as the people of Lot did (i.e. homosexuality), kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done, and if you find anyone having sexual intercourse with animal, kill him and kill the animal." Related by Ahmad and the four Imams with a trustworthy chain of narrators.
Sunan Ibn Majah -> The Chapters on Legal Punishments
It was narrated from Ibn`Abbas that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:
“Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.”
Jami` at-Tirmidhi -> The Book on Legal Punishments
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
That the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Whomever you find doing the actions of the people of Lut then kill the one doing it, and the one it is done to."
Killing APOSTATES:
Abu Umamah bin Sahl bin Hunaif narrated that on the day of siege, 'Uthman bin 'Affan stood overlooking the people, and he said:
"I swear to you by Allah! You know that the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w) said: 'The blood of a Muslim man is not lawful, except for one of three (cases):Illegitimate sexual relations after Ihsan (having been married), or apostasy after Islam, or taking a life without right, for which he is killed.' By Allah! I have never committed illegitimate sexual relations, not during Jahiliyyah nor during Islam, and I have not committed apostasy since I gave my pledge to the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w), and I have not taken a life that Allah had made unlawful. So for what do you fight me?"'
Sunan an-Nasa'i » The Book of Fighting [The Prohibition of Bloodshed]
Ibn 'Abbas said:
"The Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him .'"
Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Apostates »
Narrated `Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him .'"
Muwatta Malik » Judgements
Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "If someone changes his deen - strike his neck !"...[...]
M :
In islamic country, homosexuality is a sin and a sinner if it is proved will be prosecuted and jailed. If he is repented sincerely then he will be released but if he is caught then the punishment will be death.
Now in western countries, the muslim needs to respect the law in place and if he commited murders on gays then he is guilty and must be punished.
But all homosexual will be punish in the judgment day,
About apostasy, i have already talked about.that is concerning the hypocrites who nneds to be judged and condemned when there give information to his ex-community and will be put the islamic state in danger otherwise if he is wants to be back up his religion (secular aor other religion) he is free: no compulsory in religion
NM : That last bit is not true. If a muslim leaves his religion and he does not repent--> death (or some other punishment). It's as simple as that. He is not free to remain an apostate openly.
You are right about homosexuality, though.
Anyways, it's better for a muslim to live in a muslim country where Islamic laws are upheld.
See Quran 4:97
Indeed, those whom the angels take [in death] while wronging themselves - [the angels] will say, "In what [condition] were you?" They will say, "We were oppressed in the land." The angels will say, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious [enough] for you to emigrate therein?" For those, their refuge is Hell - and evil it is as a destination.
En français:
Ceux qui ont fait du tort à eux mêmes, les Anges enlèveront leurs âmes en disant : "Où en étiez-vous ? " (à propos de votre religion) - "Nous étions impuissants sur terre", dirent-ils. Alors les Anges diront : " La terre d'Allah n'était-elle pas assez vaste pour vous permettre d'émigrer ? " Voilà bien ceux dont le refuge et l'Enfer. Et quelle mauvaise destination !
But thanks for being honest with me, M. At least you don't lie about Islam. Respect.
M : you said it is better for a muslim to live in islamic country. Agreed but today there isn't islamic country Today there is a mix of islamic law and masonry law. Don't talk about middle east countries who are hypocrites and doesn't follow the islamic law. There will be an islamic country when it will be a caliphate and a council. Those counsillors must honests, against corruption, integrated and folow the sunna.
M2 :Il y en a aucun, tu as raison
NM : On this entire planet..not a single Islamic country!.Not a single one? .How convenient...
M : I'm afraid no. The last one was before 1917. The caliphate was manage by the othomans and the leaders of the westerns countries who are all free masons, set theirs muppets in every countries, No countries is save by this sect. the Biggest ones are USA, UK and France.
NM : Mais, tout le mond (sauf les musulmans, et les chrétien etc.) croit que les gays et les apostats sont innocents. Ils ont rien fait de mal. À cet égard, on peut dire que l'islam commande les musulmans de tuer des innocents (dans un état islamique).
M2 :
- Le judaïsme condamne à la peine de mort pour les rapports homosexuels (la Bible ne mentionne que les rapports entre hommes).
- En islam, c'est un point très flou finalement. Dans le Coran, il est fait référence au peuple de Loth : « Vous livrez vous à cette turpitude que nul, parmi les mondes, n'a commise avant vous ? Certes, vous assouvissez vos désirs charnels avec les hommes au lieu des femmes ! Vous êtes bien un peuple outrancier. » (7:80-81). En ce sens, sur le plan moral, le Coran interdit l'homosexualité (moins grave pour les femmes car pas de sodomie mais interdit quand même).
Le Prophète (saws) a condamné (dans l'idée) l'homosexualité mais n'a jamais dit quel était la sanction légale. Ce sont plutôt ses compagnons (sahaba) qui en ont débattu.
Ainsi, TOUS les hadiths traitant de cette question sont largement remis en cause par les oulémas d'hier et d'aujourd'hui.
DONC non, l'Islam ne dit pas de tuer les homosexuels. La sanction doit être divine et pas humaine. Il ne nous appartient pas, en tant qu'humains, civilisés et réflexifs, de châtier quiconque sur des interprétations erronées. C'est le meilleur moyen d'aller en Enfer... donc tu conclues bien que Daesh est la 1ère fournée à aller en Enfer. Ils font tout mal (tuer, violer, jurer, offensive et non défensive, aucune recherche d'accord... même le vendredi, même durant le ramadan et vont jusqu'à rater des prières !).
Pour les apostats, c'est un point plus délicat effectivement. Mais il est extrêmement important de savoir que le Coran s'est révélé sur 23 ans et que, de ce fait, la majeure partie des versets sont circonstanciels.
En gros, un verset pour chaque événement !
Ainsi, connaître le contexte de chaque verset fait partie de sa compréhension et de son exégèse.
Un hadith mentionné par Ibn Abbâs (il avait 13 ans... fiable ou pas ? : Le Prophète a dit : "Celui qui change de religion, tuez-le !".
Il a été rapporté par Boukhari mais pas par Muslim. Par conséquent, cet hadith est classé comme étant ahad (rapporté par une seule personne ; or, l'islam s'appuie énormément sur les témoignages (souvent 4), entre autres, d'où l'extrême difficulté à accomplir la lapidation, les exécutions, etc... en théorie hein !).
D'ailleurs, le Prophète a plusieurs fois passés des pactes avec les Quraysh (tribu polythéiste qui ont souvent tenté de porter atteinte à Muhammad (saws)) et a même parlé avec des apostats sans leur porter atteinte mais plutôt pour les prévenir de la gravité de l'acte (pas de menace, juste du renseignement... comme ce que je fais là avec toi).
Voilà, tu sais tout ! :)
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