Royaume-Uni : s’exprimant à la Chambre des Lords, Malcolm Pearson dénonce les « millions de viols de filles blanches et sikhs commis par des musulmans »
http://www.fdesouche.com/970325-royaume-uni-sexprimant-a-la-chambre-des-lords-malcolm-pearson-denonce-les-millions-de-viols-de-filles-blanches-et-sikhs-par-des-musulmans
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/973577187491221504
Grande-Bretagne : Lord Pearson de Rannoch a insisté auprès du gouvernement sur l’ampleur des scandales d’abus sexuels sur mineurs à Rotherham, Rochdale ou Telford.
S’exprimant à la Chambre des Lords, l’ancien dirigeant du parti Ukip a déclaré: « Ces filles sont généralement violées plusieurs fois par jour. »
« Des millions de viols de filles blanches et sikhs ont été perpétrés par des hommes musulmans, dont seulement 222 ont été condamnés depuis 2005 ».
Il a ajouté: « Le gouvernement demandera-t-il aux responsables musulmans si ce comportement de violence est accepté par le Coran? »
« Le gouvernement encouragera-t-il un débat national sur les différentes interprétations de l’islam, peut-on parler de l’islam sans être accusé de racisme? »
La députée conservatrice de Telford estime que la BBC (télévision publique) ne se soucie pas de cette affaire car les victimes sont des Blanches de la classe ouvrière.
Scandale des viols collectifs de Telford (UK) par des gangs pakistanais : « Le silence honteux de la télévision publique pour le bien de la diversité »
http://www.fdesouche.com/969589-scandale-des-viols-collectifs-de-telford-uk-par-des-gangs-pakistanais-le-silence-honteux-de-la-television-publique-pour-le-bien-de-la-diversite
Twitter
Article de Doulgas Murray datant du 12 mars.
La première page du Sunday Mirror d’hier disait : «Le pire scandale d’abus sexuels sur mineurs de l’histoire de la Grande-Bretagne: des centaines de jeunes filles ont été violées, battues, vendues et certaines ont même été tuées.» Comme les scandales de Rotherham, Rochdale et Oxfordshire. Dans d’autres endroits, il semble que les victimes soient, une fois de plus, des filles britanniques blanches et les auteurs des hommes musulmans, principalement d’origine pakistanaise.
Nous apprenons une fois de plus comment, au cours des quatre dernières décennies, toutes les branches de l’État – y compris les travailleurs sociaux et la police – ont laissé faire ces viols collectifs d’enfants. Et nous apprenons – encore une fois – à quel point la peur des accusations de «racisme» ont fait que les identités des coupables aient été cachées et que les affaires n’ont pas été examinées.
Lorsque l’affaire a éclaté hier, elle a été couverte par une série d’autres journaux, y compris tous les concurrents du Mirror. Mais pas la BBC (télévision publique britannique). Comme l’a noté Ed West.
12 Mars
Ed West
@edwest
the scale of this across England is simply staggering. far worse than I thought possible, almost too horrific to comprehend. I can't think of anything in modern British history that comes close http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487167/Telford-child-sex-scandal-involving-1-000-Britains-worst.html …
Ed West
@edwest
'The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance' pic.twitter.com/4zZaSC8Fa6
13:27 - 12 mars 2018
Voir l'image sur Twitter
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Informations sur les Publicités Twitter et confidentialité
Ce n’est qu’après un bon nombre de commentaires hostiles à propos de cet oubli que la BBC a mentionné l’affaire cet après-midi. (Westmonster)
(…) Il est maintenant clair que la plupart des personnes occupant des postes d’autorité dans ce pays n’ont jamais voulu que des affaires comme celles de Telford, Rochdale ou Rotherham sortent. (…) Parce que de telles histoires gâchent le discours dominant que tiennent tout une génération de responsables.
Il est plus facile de continuer à essayer de tout couvrir. Et c’est pourquoi il y a maintenant un tel effort concerté pour arrêter, faire taire, bannir, rétrograder les personnes qui évoquent ou luttent contre ces viols collectifs en série. « Pour le bien de la diversité »
(…) The Spectator
------------------------------------------
Gromming gang sex abuse of children and teenagers by muslim Pakistani or Bangladeshi :
Aylesbury
Banbury
Bristol
Derby
Halifax
Keighley
Newcastle
Oxford
Peterborough
Rochdale
Telford
See the various reports at https://www.westmonster.com/
-------------------------------------------
Discussion
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/847v57/lord_pearson_were_looking_at_millions_of_rapes_of/#bottom-comments
Lord Pearson "We're looking at millions of rapes of white and Sikh girls by Muslim men, only 222 of whom have been convicted since 2005. Can we talk about Islam without being accused of hate crime?".TWITTER(twitter.com)
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[–]TheInvisibleGuests 159 points il y a 16 heures
Can someone explain to me why the common denominator here is Islam and not Pakistani men?
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[–]Crappy99 149 points il y a 1 jour
I don't know the cases, but is millions true? Anyone got any links to the numbers?
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[–]kriptonicxCan't we talk about this? 22 points il y a 21 heures
Does anyone have any numbers on how many men are predicted to be involved?
The "only" seems to suggest there are likely to be many more out there in?
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[–]Zingzongwingwong 2 points il y a 13 heures
This is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. However, their particular religion does help to shape the culture of Pakistan. And their religion has contributed to the lack of education, or any form of enlightenment, in that part of the world. We shouldn't use issues like this as a stick with which to beat over one billion people worldwide, but we should be having a conversation about education and enlightenment, with a particular focus on female education and equality.
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[–]BlunderingFool 3 points il y a 12 heures
Being taught that outside groups (kaffars) are less than second class citizens and that they should be 'subdued' certainly doesn't help.
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[–]Gripey 1 point il y a 9 heures
It's not a stick to beat up the muslim world, is it? It is the need to discuss how to protect British girls (whatever colour) from predatory and criminal sexual exploitation. Would I let me daughter live/rent in a predominantly muslim area? Not a fckn chance, unless she is chaperoned everywhere, like devout muslim girls are. Is she at risk from men generally? maybe, but the chances are worse in some places than others. Remember that girl who was sexual assaulted three separate times in central london? She was finally helped by passerby's because she was unconscious in the street. It used to be that being alone wasn't a GUARANTEE of being attacked.
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[–]Zingzongwingwong -1 point il y a 9 heures
But how does blaming Islam change any of that? All it will do is isolate these communities even more. Rather than demonising an entire religion, we need to have an honest conversation. These communities need to acknowledge that there is a cultural problem, which undoubtedly is influenced by Islam. But Islam in isolation isn't the root cause. There are also agents out there using this as an excuse to demonise Islam, and that's as insidious as the abuse itself.
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[–]Gripey 2 points il y a 8 heures
Reminds me of the circular argument when the judge said young women were unwise to become so drunk they no longer had their wits about them in public. The screaming for her resignation for stating an unpopular truth contrasts with the likelihood of any intelligent person to pay heed. Do we integrate "these communities" by ignoring these dastardly crimes? You have no idea how much contempt they have for you, or yours, if you are western. I really hope they can be integrated, because the alternative is a future civil war. But the signs aren't great, unless modern muslims can turn their back on the medieval parts of their culture, which maybe possible with the internet and whatnot. or it may just help them remain separate. and truth is the first casualty of war.
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[–]Zingzongwingwong 1 point il y a 7 heures
You are clearly very fearful. And probably read too many right wing newspapers/websites etc. I'd hate to live my life like that. Fear is a very powerful driver of human behaviour, but you can break free. Critical thinking is your first step. These 'us' and 'them' arguments you keep making are far too simplistic in thought. Nothing is black and white, just many shades of grey. The modern world is a complicated place, and conversations should have layer upon layer of nuance. And the talk of civil war is utterly ludicrous, if you truly believe that you should probably seek some professional help.
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[–]Gripey [score caché] il y a 3 heures
I really hope they can be integrated, because the alternative is a future civil war.
Ok, IF they are not integrated, and they continue to immigrate and increase as a percentage of the population and there is no civil war, then the future is total domination. I don't see that happening. But it is a reasonable proposition, to which the arguments against are of course lacking.
It seems unlikely, but it has certainly happened elsewhere, many times. Does Britain have some magic property which will prevent this? Does a science denying, homophobic, democracy denying, Justice denying religious culture have a definite prosperous future for us all. Maybe. also maybe not.
The modern world is complicated, as you say, but I would be more reassured if you could point me to a successful and prosperous outcome to the experiment we are running here, because terrorism and murder are pretty common in many parts of this "modern" world. Just one would be nice. One without serious shortcomings. At a stretch, Turkey? but reallly, that isn't based on immigration. Hmm, nope, I'm stuck. Dubai?
Thing is, I was a cheerleader for immigration before I realised what was happening. The Chinese? Bring it on, 40,000 catholics offered refuge. No bombing so far. or paedophile rings.
Indians? sure, why not. again, no bombings, not a common sight in paedophiles sex rings even if they misbehave in the old country.
Africans? well, I'm 50:50. The bushmeat thing pisses me off, but again, with the exception of the I word, no real problems.
Australians. I love Australians.
Irish. well, they had their moments I guess. But we have free movement so they aren't exactly immigrants.
Poles. I like poles a lot. Again, ixnay on the bombing, pretty good workers.
Eastern Europeans generally. Not sure, but they are an unfriendly bunch. Mind you, they are treated like shit at work.
etc really. Nope I just am worried about Muslims. Maybe it's the medieval meets modern thing, where they are in the position to use modern tech to maintain their medieval beliefs, but it could all work out.
My problem is, after reading "The Strange Death of Europe" all I ever hear people say to Douglas is "how DARE you." which is not an argument.
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[–]Zingzongwingwong [score caché] il y a 2 heures
BONG!
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[–]dogsunverified 2 points il y a 12 heures*
The common denominator is indeed religion, and whilst I don't disagree culture plays a big part, don't tell me we shouldn't be criticising stupid ideas, because no religion is above reason, and if you want to argue that then gtfo.
Now, I am not saying all religions are built on stupid ideas, but all religions being man-made and all, have incredible flaws that we cannot brush under the carpet.
If someone's feelings are hurt because of criticism about their "chosen" religion, why wouldn't they acknowledge the criticism and try to fix the problem? The reason is that the criticism of religion is often taken as a personal attack by religious people, usually because culture and religion are so interlinked for some individuals, but we shouldn't allow these people to stop the conversation from happening. Everyone is invited to talk as long as they can respectfully articulate their ideas to others.
For me, it all boils down to "I value truth" over anything else, whether it makes me feel good or bad is irrelevant. So you can believe whatever you want, as long as you are not evangelically spreading misinformation and/or inciting violence.
The problem with Islam is not the people, it's the ideology.
"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter."
Read more: breakdown of violence in the quran with quotes.
Otherwise I'd recommend listening to Sam Harris, or Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins talk about why Islam in particular is the most threatening religion at this point in human history. I'd put links but these three guys are incredibly outspoken about the dangers of religion, so it should not take more than a minute to find a debate or interview on youtube where they discuss Islam in particular. Sam Harris in particular has a lot to say on Islam.
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[–]capt-chrisFuture Prime Minister 2 points il y a 15 heures*
SOMEBODY FUCKING SAID IT. I'm sick of nobody being allowed to criticise islam for its genuinely repellent traits, or its predisposition towards misogyny and racism, out of fear of being called "islamophobic" or having a fatwa declared on them. This NEEDS to be talked about. They are preying upon our girls and subverting our culture.
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[–]cash_dollar_money 3 points il y a 10 heures
Not all Muslims are like that some peacefully practice their religion and are good people.
You can critise parts of Islam you don't like but that doesn't mean every Muslim believes every part of Islam the way you think they do.
Everyone deserves to be judged on their own actions and just because two people pray similarly doesn't mean you get to criticise both when one does something bad.
Some people who call themselves Christians believe in awful disgusting things and some are terrorists but we don't judge our local Methodist congregation because of them. We shouldn't do the same to groups of Muslims, they have a right to not be associated with bad people even when their religions share a name.
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[–]ThePortNinja 1 point il y a 10 heures
I definitely judge the local Methodist congregation this way.
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[–]CaridorAnyone but May, anyone but May 3 points il y a 12 heures
Thing is, shouldn't we focus on Pakistan and that region, since the overwhelming majority of "Asian" rapists come from there, rather than focusing on Muslims, when most of the world's Muslims don't come from there?
I mean, if there was a rape gang made entirely of Christians from Examplestan, we wouldn't be attacking Christians, would we?
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[–]capt-chrisFuture Prime Minister 0 point il y a 11 heures
When these rapes and child exploitations are overwhelmingly being conducted by muslims, you have to wonder whether muslim culture (it's not just Pakistani muslims that enjoy raping) has a problem with misogyny and rape. Child brides, parties where young boys are dressed as girls and raped, and hatred of anybody who isn't muslim (which makes them far more likely to be the target of rape). It's a problem with islam as a whole, not just Pakistani muslims.
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[–]CaridorAnyone but May, anyone but May 2 points il y a 11 heures
Well, yes, you get bad apples in any culture but it does seem like the vast majority are from Pakistan or neighbouring countries.
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[–]oguz-38 0 point il y a 11 heures
There is no one Islamic culture. As there is no one Christian, atheist, whatever culture.
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[–]CunningStunstundecided 0 point il y a 12 heures
The thing is there are hundreds of thousands of muslims in the UK from various different backgrounds and cultures that go about their daily lives. A British muslim would have different mindset to a middle eastern muslim.
You can criticise the religion all you like mate but don't put out blanket blames on all followers of the religion.
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[–]I_Always_Truthpost 1 point il y a 15 heures
Not good
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[–]Sphinkle 1 point il y a 11 heures
What did he say about Islam then? Or did he just ask that question?
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[–]_tpyo 1 point il y a 10 heures
can't you talk about crime without mentioning religion?
S'not hard.
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[–]Larenhire 1 point il y a 9 heures
No.
Source: The retards that make up this subreddit are the same retards that are supposed to enforce the law.
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[–]Sonos 1 point il y a 6 heures
Bravo Lord Pearson.
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[–]franciseight 1 point il y a 5 heures
The hate crime laws are part of the apparatus used to suppress the righteous anger of victims and their families. None of these allegations are news, ask anyone with daughters. Everybody I know who has children cannot send them to school around here because the schools are about 90%. Between the ages of 11 and about 18 girls must be kept close to the family and away from parks, fairgrounds, leisure centres, cineplexes, shopping malls and pizza restaurants lest they be approached. It is the case that underage girls are easily manipulated by older boys with drugs and alcohol. Their patters are well rehearsed and effective and the hotels and restaurants cater for their abuse. The shocking cruelty of their abusers has been covered up for decades by police and politicians alike using laws to suppress the awful truth about life on this island.
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[–]wlondonmatt [score caché] il y a 4 heures
Millions seriously?
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[–]Userofreddit1234 [score caché] il y a 3 heures
maybe it wouldn't seem hateful if you didn't use stupid exaggerations like "millions of rapes"
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[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal. Not "leftist pansy" [score caché] il y a 2 heures
Probably the best thing anyone has said in the Commons in 10 years or more
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[–]Jim_Nash 2 points il y a 21 heures
And can we consider the possibilty that while "political correctness" may explain the inaction on the part of a presumed "white" police force, the other explanation, that there are Muslims in high places in the police who are covering for their own kind generally and even potentially covering for their own complicity in these sex rings, is something that should be looked into?
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[–]billy_tables 2 points il y a 19 heures
How high?
What sort of rank would you have to be to cover this up?
What procedure(s) would you use to cover it up?
How many police officers at that rank are there in the UK?
How many of them are Muslims?
How long would it have been going on?
What would the evidence of that look like?
How much of that evidence exists?
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[–]Jim_Nash 1 point il y a 10 heures
All good questions which a light needs shining on.
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[–]billy_tables 1 point il y a 5 heures
Try to consider the evidence before coming up with a theory next time
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[–]Jim_Nash [score caché] il y a 4 heures
The evidence will be there, and should be looked at.
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[–]tristanfinn 1 point il y a 20 heures
"Rape Culture" is wrong, unless it is sanctioned by the Koran, Haddiths, Sunna, and Sharia - then it is a right and duty. Allah has clearly sent a message to all Muslims - take what you want from the unbelievers 'be harsh with them.' 57 Muslim countries in the world, and each one more miserable than the other. A failed system whose 'refugees' seek to set up anew in each country they bring 'immigration jihad' to. Inish Allah, indeed - in deed.
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[–]Gripey 1 point il y a 9 heures
Maybe this will be the time when it doesn't all turn to shit. Maybe some magic British thing will turn things around. Just because it has never worked before... There is no real solution, other than denial. Because acknowledgement just makes it worse. The question is, would you want to know if you were dying?
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[–]tristanfinn 1 point il y a 9 heures
I sincerely hope so. There are of course many different versions of Islam, maybe one of the kinder, gentler versions will win out. I am in the US and we generally don't have the kind of Muslim neighborhoods you seem to have in the UK and the EU. People are dispersed. I have several Muslim friends; I do not talk about religion with them because they do not say much about it themselves. Most religions change over time, and some go out of business.
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[–]deathschemistI WANT OFF MRS. MAY'S WILD RIDE 1 point il y a 16 heures*
the problem is that people who talk about the rapes perpetrated by muslim men are often pushing a racist agenda while doing so, or are often also known for saying outrageously racist shit, or are part of a party that is known to have a lot of racist members, you know, like ukip, who lord pearson is the leader of.
not to mention, talking about it as if it's the entirety of Islam that's the problem is incredibly bigoted.
but you know what, i even have a solution for ya that isn't problematic as fuck. increase police funding (also send out regular memos that they should treat rape claims seriously), increase school funding, and add "what rape is and why it's bad" to the school curriculum under PSHE. nip the problem at the bud, so to speak. no need to persecute anyone, just fucking educate. maybe it'll take a decade or two for the effects of those to all be seen, however, it will have an effect without resorting to bigotry.
oh yeah, and make sure everyone is subject to the same laws. you know?
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[–]scud121 1 point il y a 13 heures
the problem is that people who talk about the rapes perpetrated by muslim men are often pushing a racist agenda while doing so, or are often also known for saying outrageously racist shit, or are part of a party that is known to have a lot of racist members, you know, like ukip, who lord pearson is the leader of.
This is part of the problem, yes, not all Muslim men form grooming rape gangs, but nearly all grooming rape gangs are formed of Muslim men. Bear in mind that they did not choose to be muslim, it's a fact of birth and indoctrination. It's very easy to create mindset that the rapists are Muslim, therefore Muslims are rapists, and it's not helped by nutters like Tommy Robinson.
Also bear in mind that this has been going on since the 80s, making it a generational problem as well as a cultural one. The vast majority of Pakistanis that I know find it abhorrent, but they don't grass each other up either.
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[–]Andysmith94 -10 point il y a 23 heures
Only if we can start talking about men without being accused of sexism.
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[–]MorgoffFar Centre 12 points il y a 22 heures
I'm not sure if you are, but when people say "why isn't this a men issue instead of a Muslim/Pakistani issue" I wonder if people think having a cock/testosterone affects your attitude to the world as much as the culture you're brought up in does.
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[–]Andysmith94 7 points il y a 21 heures
I'm just saying that if you're arbitrarily going to choose one particular trait of the demographic (i.e. Muslim) and claim that the issue stems entirely from that trait then you shouldn't get annoyed if someone else comes along and arbitrarily chooses a different trait (i.e. male) for their explanation.
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, that's 1 in every 4 people. Men make up one in every 2. In both cases, there are far too many people to paint everyone with a single brush.
Besides, between BBC grooming children for years and the numerous catholic rape priests uncovered across the world it's not like you can claim non-Muslim men are paragons of virtue.
I absolutely agree that your personality and actions in life have nothing to do with your cock (or lack thereof) and are entirely determined by the culture you are brought up in. I'm just less eager to point fingers at someone else's culture before I've had a good hard look at my own.
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[–]Awesomefusion 3 points il y a 15 heures
Are you really denying the phenomenon that is pakistani-muslim rape gangs?
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[–]Andysmith94 2 points il y a 13 heures
not at all, I'm just trying to make people see the hypocrisy behind getting outraged and calling for mass deportation of all pakistani muslims because of their evil culture when there's more than enough evil in our own.
If these people moved from Pakistan to the UK, renounced Islam and either became devout catholic clergymen or got a job in media/parliament before setting up their rape gang then it would be out of the news by the end of the month.
My point is that everyone spends so much time focusing on the Pakistani-Muslim part that it leaves little to no time to focus on the rape gang part.
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[–]Awesomefusion 3 points il y a 13 heures
If there were Irish Catholics or Czech atheists coming here and engaging in this stuff I think people would react the same, I don't actually believe Islam has too much to do about it apart from a few sayings of Muhammed, It's just this particular demographic seems to keep popping up.
The reason people focus on the pakistani-muslim part so much now though is because they were brown and not white it let them get away with it for ages and no one in the police wanted to be outed and shunned as the "racist" for pointing it out.
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[–]MorgoffFar Centre 5 points il y a 20 heures
I'm just saying that if you're arbitrarily going to choose one particular trait of the demographic (i.e. Muslim) and claim that the issue stems entirely from that trait then you shouldn't get annoyed if someone else comes along and arbitrarily chooses a different trait (i.e. male) for their explanation.
I don't think either choice here is arbitrary. You could say Muslim due to the general treatment of women in most Muslim majority countries or male because men are almost always the rapists.
It's whether or not the logic that takes someone to that conclusion stands up to scrutiny. But no it's not logical to assume every Muslim in the world is a rapist.
I absolutely agree that your personality and actions in life have nothing to do with your cock (or lack thereof) and are entirely determined by the culture you are brought up in. I'm just less eager to point fingers at someone else's culture before I've had a good hard look at my own.
I get what you're saying. But if you were to compare attitudes towards rape amongst men in Pakistan to attitudes towards rape in the UK how do you think they'd line up?
I don't think foreign cultures should be beyond criticism merely on principle.
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[–]Andysmith94 0 point il y a 12 heures
Foreign cultures should absolutely be subject to criticism, but we don't control foreign cultures and we have no power to enact change in them.
Criticise foreign cultures all you like, I'm sure Pakistan does have pretty poor attitudes towards women and maybe that is why these men decided to set up these circles. But their clients were UK citizens, the neighbours who stood by and did nothing were UK citizens, the police who knew what was happening and yet still did nothing are a UK police force.
For years they got away with running large scale rape gangs because we accepted it culturally. It was our culture, not theirs, which let it happen.
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[–]Mynameisnearl 2 points il y a 14 heures
Only if you're prepared to admit that would imply genetics is the issue.
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[–]Andysmith94 0 point il y a 13 heures
I don't really get why it implies genetics is the issue.
Men tend to have shorter hair, like cars, play more sports and commit sexual assault. Do you seriously think that the reason for these tendencies is genetics? Are you seriously completely oblivious to the elements of British culture which have influenced your personality since birth?
Genetics are not the only thing which determines how a British born man chooses to act.
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[–]Mynameisnearl 1 point il y a 12 heures
Those things are generally true of men worldwide. Yes. Men commiting more sexual assault is a result of genetics. If a woman sexually assaults a man she is likely to be burdened with a pregnancy and a child. Other way round the guy gets to pass on his genes for almost no cost.
Taking risks is also a male thing, worldwide.
You got me on the hair thing though. That isn't genetic. Luckily for me it's a total red herring.
Oh and I'll throw in all these words and you can add them wherever you like. Average Per capita Not all
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[+]barneygale nombre de points du commentaire sous la limite (2 enfants)
[–]StopHavingAnOpinion -1 point il y a 23 heures
actually, yea.
Thats what the entire 'meToo' movement was about, was it not? rise in assaults or whatever.
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[–]andyjonesx 1 point il y a 22 heures*
That one really put me in a pickle, considering I employ my wife.
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[–]worstdamnday 0 point il y a 17 heures
They really went overboard with the whole "power" thing.
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[–]please-replace -3 point il y a 18 heures
So if anybody commits a crime now we have to link it to either islam, Christianity, atheism etc? It was discovered today that big atheist companies are not paying fair tax, an atheist mopped gang has been stealing Jewellery in London. Christian politicians pedophile group dating back to 1960 etc
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[–]tomatopathe 11 points il y a 15 heures
If there were 60 million companies but only 5 million were atheist, and 99% of tax dodging companies are atheist, then yeah, let's find out what the hell is going on with atheist companies and why some of them commit tax fraud.
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[–]wiztwasgreen surger 1 point il y a 12 heures
"Millions" is he being literal or inflama tory I can not tell?
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[–]SqueakyPoP 1 point il y a 11 heures
Can we talk about it without being accused of a hate crime?
The answer is no
Basically if you offend anyone for any reason its a "hate incident" and you're going to jail
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[–]forallmyfans2 -2 point il y a 14 heures
Lmao at this shitflake. 'can we FINALLY get back to racism?'
No sugartits. You've always been able to criticise Islam. Religion is backwards as fuck. You just can't go around calling all British Muslims rapists because 0.02% of them are sex offenders.
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[–]Petey-Monster 0 point il y a 12 heures
I dunno, have we got a figure for the number of white guys who've raped women in that time?
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[–]MrZakalweEverything is historic. 6 points il y a 12 heures
Yup- pretty similar total numbers of offenders.
Difference is one of those groups only makes up 3% of the population making them vastly overrepresented (clue: it isn't white people).
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[–]Petey-Monster 0 point il y a 12 heures
Funny that.
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[–][effacé] il y a 20 heures
[deleted]
[–]piratemurray 1 point il y a 14 heures
Que Mehdi Hassan
Mehdi Raza Hasan es una periodista política británica, locutora y autora.
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[–]KyloBender -4 point il y a 13 heures
Glad he’s saying it. It’s time people realised he existential threat Muslims pose to our democracy.
A total ban on Muslim immigration and a suspension of benefits to all Muslims needs to happen now.
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[–]negotiationtable 1 point il y a 11 heures
So why would you punish people that have nothing to do with these crimes? If you were catholic should we punish you because of the actions of some catholic priests?
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[–]niftythrow 4 points il y a 11 heures
Why are you so quick to gamble the future of non muslim children in this country?
If you can give me a single tangible benefit to mass Muslim immigration to this country I will concede.
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[–]negotiationtable 2 points il y a 10 heures
Wanting people to be punished based on the crimes they have committed instead of just punishing people based on religion is not gambling the future of anyone. In fact collective punishment has led to such bad things happening in the past, it is forbidden by the geneva convention.
By all means bring the law down like a ton of bricks on rapists. By all means create a better support network in these areas.
But if you punish people that have nothing to do with these rapes, for these rapes, simply because they share some features, you are going to a place that history shows is extremely dark. That is aside from it being simply fucking unjust.
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[–]niftythrow 2 points il y a 10 heures
So no benefits then.
We as a country have the right to pick and choose who are allow in this country, and until you can give me a single benefit of Muslim immigration over any other demographic then I am all for halting all of it.
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[–]negotiationtable 1 point il y a 10 heures
So no benefits then.
What?
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[–]qtna 1 point il y a 10 heures
THE MUSLIMS THE BENEFITS THE MUSLIMS THE BENEFITS
IT'S DISGUSTING
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[–]negotiationtable 2 points il y a 10 heures
You've perfectly captured the depth of thinking that has gone into the position :)
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[–]KyloBender 2 points il y a 11 heures
TBH I don’t consider it punishment to ban Muslims migrating here: it’s rational self interest. And I don’t believe it’s punishment to cut their benefits: we’ve seen what happens when they reach critical mass; just look as most Muslim countries. It’s just rational self interest.
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[–]negotiationtable 1 point il y a 11 heures
OK, we disagree on this.So what do you hope to achieve by banning the benefits of some random muslim person that has as much to do with these rapes as you or I?
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[–]KyloBender 2 points il y a 11 heures
To force them to fully integrate into the workforce which should help to give them a better sense of British values.
If you can live on benefits and remain within your own community (all the while having children) you won’t integrate. Benefits facilitate segregation.
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[–]habitsofwaste -6 point il y a 18 heures
And how many were raped by Christians? Methinks this is just a male problem and religion is just a grouping.
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[–]sealions_are_coolAlt Liberal 1 point il y a 13 heures
Considering that the estimate of rape incidence in the UK is about a hundred thousand women a year and he's talking about million of rapes over roughly a 15-year period, it's plausible that, at the peak, a majority of rapes in Britain were being committed by gangs of Muslim men against white teenage girls.
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[–]distopianBliss 0 point il y a 17 heures
I can see this is going to get lost in all the shouting. But it's worth reading (all of it): https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/
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[–]Awesomefusion 1 point il y a 15 heures
In 2011 CEOP published an analysis of possible offenders who had been reported to it for “street grooming and child sexual exploitation”. CEOP said that offenders in these cases often act in groups.
It analysed over 1,200 of these possible offenders and found the vast majority were male. Around 30% were white, 28% Asian and 3% black and 38% were unknown. When CEOP looked only at a group of around 940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
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[–]distopianBliss 2 points il y a 15 heures
Although, as the article expressly mentions, not all sexual exploitation is of children is done by gangs:
"Several newspaper articles written by Nazir Afzal, former Chief Crown Prosecutor for the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), as the source of her statement that nearly 90% of people convicted of child abuse offences were white men. "
And
"Where offenders’ ethnicity was known, 81% of people convicted of sexual offences in 2014 were white, 7% were black and 9% were Asian in 2014. These proportions were similar over the previous four years."
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[–]Awesomefusion 2 points il y a 15 heures
It says in the article though those figures are mixed with standard rape convictions also, not just underage girls predated on by groups of men.
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[–]distopianBliss 1 point il y a 14 heures
It says “For example, if someone is found guilty of raping a child under the age of 16, this will appear in the figures under ‘rape’ rather than ‘sexual activity with a minor’.”. So rape of a minor is counted as rape and it appears in the figures for rape. Which are at similar rates. So the main difference remains the modus operandi rather than total rate.
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[–]Redducer 0 point il y a 10 heures
Before talking about Islam:
Everybody should at least read 2 following surahs: Al-Fatiha (1 minute read, executive summary of Islam) and Al-Baqara (30 minute read).
As an exercise please roughly count verses about Islam and the proper practice of Islam, vs verses about what is not Islam and the untrue faithful - the ratio is very interesting.
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[–]DeadeyeDuncanIts comfy up here on my high horse -1 point il y a 14 heures
Why is leave.eu tweeting this? 🤔
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[–]Gripey 2 points il y a 9 heures
Every conflation of immigration feeds into their message that Europe is to blame. Even for non euro immigration, apparently.
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[–]mushroomchowDon't blame me, I voted Waldo. 1 point il y a 12 heures
Lord Pearson was the leader of UKIP in 2009/10 and leads the pro-Brexit pressure group "Leave Means Leave".
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[–]DeadeyeDuncanIts comfy up here on my high horse 1 point il y a 12 heures
Yeah, but this is pretty off topic for leave.eu, surely? Talking about it seems to me they're using their platform to spread a different agenda...
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[–]sleuid -15 point il y a 23 heures
I find it pretty amusing that compacted in to one sentence is a call for moderation, and a pretty extreme claim. Moderation - this is a real issue that we need to actually talk about guys, there's an issue with muslim men. And extremism - MUSLIM MEN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MILLIONS OF RAPES.
You can't make claim number 1 in the same sentence as claim 2, and you can't make claim 2 stand without some serious evidence. Let's say that 10,000 girls have been raped by these grooming gangs.... and they were raped an average of over 100 times each?
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[–]DontMuchTooThink 4 points il y a 22 heures
Is 100 times each so hard to believe when some of the girls were abused for, I dunno 4+ years, which would be 208 weeks. There were instances of gang rapes of 5+ men raping one girl in one night. I could go on, but number are feasible.
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[–]sleuid -2 point il y a 12 heures
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's something you actually have to provide some evidence for, not just assert. It's a wild accusation to just state.
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[–]DontMuchTooThink 3 points il y a 12 heures
What he says:
If we accept the views of our lead office(r) for child protection, of Rotherham's MP and the recent Jay and ??? report (refers to Alexis Jay report), we seem to be looking at millions of rapes...
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[–]sleuid -1 point il y a 12 heures
I've looked and I can't find any of those as sources for the 1 million rape claim. I mean, I don't get how you go from 1400 people in the Alexis Jay report, to 1,000,000 rapes. That doesn't add up to me.
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[–]scud121 [score caché] il y a 2 heures
That report is 1 town. 1400 girls raped multiple times stacks up really fast.
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[–]sleuid [score caché] il y a 2 heures
Right, that's 1 town. It's 1,400 girls. Show the fucking evidence that there's more. That's what I've been saying all along and no one can. There's just this lazy 'there were 1400 girls so CLEARLY ITS A MILLIONS RAPES'
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[–]scud121 [score caché] il y a une heure
Jesus christ, so you read at all? The links to the various rings in the uk have been plastered all over reddit for days now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexual_abuses_perpetrated_by_groups
Aylesbury child sex abuse ring Bristol child sex abuse ring Derby child sex abuse ring Halifax child sex abuse ring Keighley child sex abuse ring Newcastle sex abuse ring Oxford child sex abuse ring Peterborough sex abuse case Rochdale child sex abuse ring Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal Telford child sex abuse ring
These are not isolated cases, it's a vulnerable girl being groomed, raped and pimped out as a child prostitute. It's not "she was raped walking home" , it's "she was sold 2-3 times a night for 6 years." Even in cases they were not pimped out, they were being abused multiple times a week. This is not 1 victim, 1 rape. It's 1 victim, multiple rapes.
Even just using rotherham as an example, 1400 children, once a week for 10 years is 3/4 of a million.
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Comments, continued...
[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 238 points il y a 1 jour
Yep, pretty sick of being called xenophobic or racist for trying to have a conversation about this. It boggles my mind that people haven't realised this has been allowed to grow and was swept under the carpet by authorities because of that very reaction.
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[–]Othersideofthemirror 46 points il y a 14 heures*
People have tried to shut me down before, but I usually stop that dead by pointing out I'm a (SE) Asian Muslim.
Without a doubt there's a cultural element. I've literally had the "all white women are worthless whores" discussion with Bengalis, Pakistanis, etc many times because they tend to see my beard, brown skin, Muslim name and know my brand of social justice politics and so speak openly. This mindset is absolutely prevalent in Muslim working class communities, less so among middle class secularists of course.
It's just they don't realise I want to smash the patriarchy, so oppose misogyny, rape, sexual violence, and all forms of oppression against women so aren't on their side. There's no doubt there is a cultural, structural, systematic and institutionalised element to this, albeit not a construct of the majority/power in this country.
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[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 16 points il y a 14 heures
Good on you. I hope views such as yours are becoming much more prevalent in the muslim community. I think ultimately, it will be people like you that turn the tide on these attitudes rather than 'outsiders' like me. I feel like it is a problem that can only be solved from within.
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[–]Othersideofthemirror 8 points il y a 14 heures
Yes, but as an middle class-ish apostate and secularist I'm not really part of the community in question, these conversations happen at work.
But I hope that sometimes my voice heard by the right people.
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[–]SinisterDexter83 4 points il y a 9 heures
A big issue is that cultural self criticism is far more prevalent in the west, with its proud history of free speech and open discussion.
The philosopher Pascal Bruckner has written eloquently on the affect that the Holocaust had on Western morality. Before the Holocaust, there was no guilt over the ravages of the British empire, no sympathy for the genocide of the native Americans. The Holocaust came and was captured on film, and Europeans had to contend with the reality that they had within themselves the exact same savagery they had previously believed separated them from their Colonial subjects. The Europeans were forced to look at their own histories and reject the notion that they were superior to the "lesser races" of the world, which lead to much soul searching and a break from the patriotic disinclination to look upon and condemn their own atrocities.
Of course, this is a simplified and shortened explanation, but it's results are clear for anyone to see. Speak to an educated westerner about their counties history, and they will fall all over themselves to catalogue the horrors that their culture has been responsible for. You rarely get that with people form other cultures, not even the educated ones. You'll never hear a Pakistani talking about the Islamic slaughter of Hindus in their homeland - a series of atrocities that far outstripped even the evil that the Spanish and Portuguese inflicted on South America. You won't hear many educated Turks even acknowledge the Armenian genocide. Educated sub saharan Africans know all about European colonialism, yet seem completely unaware of Bantu, Malian and Zulu colonialism. Educated westerners take pride in their cultural guilt, they see it as a badge of honour to say "Weren't we just the worst!" and due to the awful doctrine of cultural relativism feel reticent to cast that same critical eye over the aforementioned "lesser races", the "noble savages" that in the previous Colonial era were seen as genetically less than "superior" Europeans and now are seen to simply lack moral agency at all.
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[–]andyjonesx 86 points il y a 22 heures
It's not xenophobic or racist to want to do something to stop the rapes. It usually quickly goes to that point when almost inevitably it goes from "the rapists are Muslim" to "Muslims are rapists".
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[–]HeCalledTheShitPoop9 16 points il y a 13 heures
The racism/xenophobia accusations come out long before that, immediately even.
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[–]Scetis 7 points il y a 12 heures
Mainly young adults with purple hair on that front...
Couldn’t agree with you more.
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[–]AmericanSamoa6666This whole subreddit just makes me angry 174 points il y a 22 heures
In my experiences this happens because the people who say
“X group is more likely to do a bad thing”
all to often go on to say some varient of
“This is why we should deport/ban group X”
Which is genuinely racist and just makes their side look bad. We need to moderate nutters on the right as well as nutters on the left if we want to have a productive discussion on how to deal with this.
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[–]diffianPlaid Cymru | Remain 18 points il y a 22 heures
Yes but nutters will be nutters and if they were easy to regulate then we wouldn’t have extremist politics to begin with. At the end of the day, you’ll always have two extreme sides to this debate, one shouting “no borders!” and the other shouting “deport all brown people!” All you can do is either ridicule these people and their opinions or just ignore them, hopefully they’ll crawl back to whatever obscure corner of the internet where they’ve carved out an echo chamber for themselves.
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[–]gildredge 28 points il y a 20 heures
Which is genuinely racist
Treating everyone as individuals and pretending groups don't exist is what allowed these men to prey on our children for decades.
The police and institutions of the state swore for years that there was no pattern, that these were individual instances of criminality, and the fact that the abusers were all Muslims had zero relevance. They refused to see them as part of a group.
https://youtu.be/qrUiHB5qJJ0?t=5m7s
I'd rather be called racist than see thousands of our children raped, I don't care whether it's fair or not.
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[–]cultish_alibi 87 points il y a 20 heures
Treating everyone as individuals
Is literally the only way to pursue justice.
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[–]PM_ME_YOUR_CATS_GRL 34 points il y a 19 heures*
If you mean it's the only way to convict someone justly, on an individual basis, then yes.
Otherwise, of course you can pursue a linked group in the name of justice IE. Nazi's, crime gangs, bank robbers, child rape ring etc etc
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[–]MrMuttleyUKDumb fuck of the day 16Feb2017 11 points il y a 14 heures
How would you discern if someone is a part of the group referred to as Bank Robbers? Age?, Skin colour, All citizens of Buttfuckistan are probably bank robbers?
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[–]Tekwulf 3 points il y a 12 heures
I'd wager we'd investigate individuals based on circumstantial and hard evidence linking them to the whereabouts of multiple bank robberies.
Or we could just round up all the black people. Black people are thieves, right?
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[–]danderpander 11 points il y a 20 heures
What about other criminal correlations? Do we set policy based on that too?
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[–]Toxicseagull 18 points il y a 15 heures
So like white nationalists? Or Irish Dissidents? Or 'urban' knife crime? Yeah we tend to. Why do you ask?
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[–]SweetBakchich 8 points il y a 15 heures
I think the correlation between crime and men would have been the obvious one, but you still missed it.
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[–]munchingfoo 14 points il y a 15 heures
See male conviction rate Vs female conviction rate and male incarceration rate Vs female incarceration rate...
Men are almost certainly the most categorised group when it comes to the criminal justice system and I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing.
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[–]TheSuperLlama 5 points il y a 14 heures
Do you have the weighted per population number of muslim paedophiles to white christian paedophiles in the UK though, it could be completely and rationally argued that the amount of paedophiles is roughly the same, the only reason this grew to the scale that it grew to is because of a lack of action by the police (in which, a lot of the police weren't acting because of dirt held on the police department).
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[–]hcazlock 3 points il y a 13 heures
Yes we definitely shouldn't tailor immigration policy to real world issues....
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[–]RealityOverdrive 4 points il y a 14 heures
You think its racist to deport child rapists?
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[–]joethepro36 8 points il y a 19 heures
Which is genuinely racist and just makes their side look bad.
How? You have a problem group and can deal with said group as a whole for the greater good of society. I mean just lowering levels of migration from places where people are far more likely to go on to commit rape in the UK seems perfectly reasonable to me. If that's racist so be it, I'm not going to pretend the world is a perfect place of atomised individuals where groups are irrelevant.
Productive discussions that come from a position of being unable to take basic actions aren't going to go anywhere are they? End up with half a year of talking and no results.
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[–]Scaphism92 12 points il y a 18 heures
Because you're looking at the perpetrators and lumping it with your existing issues with the "problem group" to justify reducing people from this group immigrating to the uk.
But in the process you're not really paying attention to other factors. The key facts behind Telford are yet to come out but it seems to share a lot of similarities to Rotherham, similarities aside from the Religion the perpetrators may have believed in based on the cultural group they part of. Underfunded areas mixed with incompetence from police, council and social services allowed child abuse activity to flourish.
The authorities turning around and saying "oh uh we didn't want to be politically insensitive so we didn't do anything" has always seemed like a piss poor excuse, especially since child abused being ignored or not handled properly by our authorities doesn't just happen when the perpetrators are muslim or brown. Whoever uses that excuse should be fucking slapped and fired, especially if its the legit reason why they didnt investigate.
Of course this would need a deep look at the flaws in our institutions which some people don't like the idea of.
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[–]forallmyfans2 8 points il y a 13 heures
The original report literally mentions the police destroying evidence. No mention of 'pc gone mad!!!'. Rotherham has had evidence of police involvement and suppression.
Ignoring this just to be racist is utterly mental and shows that someone gives no fucks about the kids and just wants to punish brown people.
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[–]rubygeek 7 points il y a 15 heures
Clearly we should then impose strict restrictions on young men, then, given that young men stands out as one of the most violent and criminal groups in society.
See why we don't tend to purse "problem groups" as a whole, rather than deal with the people actually committing crimes?
If someone makes an argument for an objective way of identifying high risk groups and sanction those groups, then I'd think it would still be quite horrific to collectively punish a whole group, but not racist, but the reality is that when we see people asking for special forms of sanctions against a whole group they tend to immediately leap to conclusions about specific ethnic groups etc. and not even bother to look at whether or not it'd even be the best predictor of the behavior in question.
That makes it very clear what the priorities are, and that it's not about actually dealing with the problem.
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[–]lichkingsmum 7 points il y a 14 heures
...and also a bit dumbfounded when the 1st half of this thread seems to be taken up with posts querying the number of girls raped and the number of times etc. If it were 10 girls raped once and then ignored by the authorities it would be despicable. I cant grasp why people are arguing over the numbers.
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[–]Gripey 7 points il y a 12 heures
Totally standard deflection. what don't you understand about that?
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[–]Nevyn16 34 points il y a 21 heures
Yep, pretty sick of being called xenophobic or racist for trying to have a conversation about this.
I really don't see anyone calling people either for trying to discuss these things is good faith.
And by that I mean actually caring about the victims, rather than just using them as a tool to be a racist bastard.
You see it all the time with things like gay rights. people who don't give a shit, and normally would oppose gay rights, suddenly use that as a stick to beat another minority they don't like more with.
If people want an honest conversation, good, carry on. if they just want to leverage things to promote their bigoted agenda...then no.
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[–]Tekwulf 4 points il y a 12 heures
You see it all the time with things like gay rights. people who don't give a shit, and normally would oppose gay rights, suddenly use that as a stick to beat another minority they don't like more with.
Oh man, the right wing about-face on gay rights has been hilarious to watch. Suddenly the same people who told me gay people are disgusting are concerned that Muslims share that view, and are outraged!
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[–]girlyboyKal 2 points il y a 6 heures
Suddenly the same people who told me gay people are disgusting
I think you’re seeing two different groups of people.
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[–]niftythrow 6 points il y a 12 heures
If this is Xenophobic and Racist then fuck it that is what I am.
I don't care anymore. I want this vile disgusting cancer of a culture removed from the UK.
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[–]biskino 16 points il y a 17 heures
Counterpoint. Every time this is attempted, lots of racists show up and the people who ‘just want to have a conversation’ don’t say anything about them. Also, I’m getting a bit tired of ‘fear of being accused of racism’ as a grab bag excuse for incompetence and disinterest in this matter from authorities.
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[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 12 points il y a 15 heures
grab bag excuse for incompetence and disinterest
I don't believe for one second that if the police force uncover a rape ring of thousands of victims or hundreds of members 'disinterest' or 'laziness' is what puts the brakes on any investigation.
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[–]forallmyfans2 3 points il y a 14 heures
The police were involved in abuse and covering up/threatening people on Rotherham. The sun investigation that inspired this thread even talks about the police destroying evidence? Did you read any of it?
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[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 7 points il y a 14 heures
Yes. It is clear it isn't 'disinterest' or 'laziness' that is fuelling a coverup.
It's the same reason the CPS refused to prosecute in the Justice for Chelsea case. Racial tensions.
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[–]Rob_Kaichin"Insane, for what it's worth." - A very stable genius. 25 points il y a 23 heures
I'm open to a conversation that doesn't begin with "Muslims are" and doesn't end with "all rapists" unless the middle of the sentence is entirely exculpatory.
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[–]niftythrow 13 points il y a 12 heures
Please give be a benefit of Muslim immigration to this country that we cannot get from other places.
I would replace every single Muslim with Sikhs if I had the choice.
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[–]TheExplodingKitten/r/UK_libertarians 41 points il y a 23 heures
Muslims disproportionately posses a culture incompatible with our society and this needs a severe crack down.
It's not even all Muslims. It's more of a cultural thing. It isn't European Muslims or even North African Muslims. It's Asian Muslims.
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[–]jambox888 31 points il y a 22 heures
The form of the crime is probably something to do with the cultural background of the criminals and that has helped make this an extremely virulent form of organised crime. It's somewhat similar to the Italian Mafia in the states in that way.
On the other hand, the elephant in the room isn't the ethnicity or religion of the perps but the reversal in social progress that allows it to continue. Basically, any kind of crime you can think of, including CSE, was way more prevalent in the past, in all societies and geographies. (It's at a historical low now because the general trend is inexorably towards lower crime, longer lives and better health all around - this isn't a recent trend and can be traced back to ancient Greece and even further back.) Now, the huge historical reduction in crime and violence is due to mainly two factors (this is a simplification but you get the gist): 1) improvements in living standards - this is sort of a circular argument but the two effects form a virtuous circle 2) the state taking an interest in and getting in between individual citizens. (Most people think there's a strong correlation between severity of punishment and recidivism but actually it's mostly just detection rate.)
To put it another way, regardless of ethnicity or religion, you simply don't get many people with good jobs, nice houses and happy kids engaging in organised crime - they have too much to lose. This is known as "cads vs dads". It's trivial to show that socioeconomic factors are far more important predictor of any kind of criminal behaviour than anything else.
So, the reason why it's mendacious of people like Lord Pearson to point the finger at a religion and/or ethnicity is because he knows all this full well, or at least should do if he's supposed to be in government. It's the same with Trump pointing the finger at blacks or mexicans - nobody in their right mind believes that inner city crime is due to anything except socioeconomics and quality of public services. They're just trying to drum up support.
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[–]PM_ME_YOUR_CATS_GRL 11 points il y a 19 heures
Your argument is flawed. You can't disassociate ethnicity or religion from socioeconomic progress. While each has its own path of progression they are intrinsically linked. The whole bases of what 'progress' looks like is defined in part by deep rooted aspects of culture and historically, religion too. ( you even hint at this yourself then disassociate it for some reason - I don't get the logic)
nobody in their right mind believes that inner city crime is due to anything except socioeconomics and quality of public services
I'm sorry but, its not one dimensional at all. If what you're saying were true then simply throwing money at it would be the solution. It's not.
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[–]AugustusM 2 points il y a 14 heures
So, actually, this aspect of geo-sociology is quite fascinating. Essentially, the question we are asking here is why are some countries rich and some countries poor?
Personally, I am quite convinced by this general theory that looks at inclusive economic and political institutions as the driving factor of economic prosperity. You are right, in a general sense, to say that culture, religion etc play a role in this, but that theory always tends to break down and we find exceptions to it. Consider for example that for a long time the Chinese where stereotyped as lazy and unproductive, but now with China's industrial boom we find ourselves talking about the "Chinese work ethic".
Secure political representation and economic opportunity are, to me, the driving factors that will outweigh any cultural or religious or historical factor simply because I struggle to imagine any human being that doesn't want to better themselves and their family. regardless of race, culture or whatever.
Anyway the point is that ethnicity and religion et all being correlated to lower socio-economic status typically is indicative of a failure of inclusive societal structures rather than being caused by their culture (and certainly not by ethnicity). All across history and the globe, we can see that vastly different cultures and ethnicities have both prospered and failed based on political and economic structure alone. There are examples of groups that are divided only by a political border or a river crossing but with vastly different economic outcomes.
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[–]Rob_Kaichin"Insane, for what it's worth." - A very stable genius. 24 points il y a 23 heures
Asian Muslims.
To my understanding it is some subcultures of Pakistani citizens.
It seems sensible to drilldown to the problem area before we start trying to 'solve' it.
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[–]TheExplodingKitten/r/UK_libertarians 20 points il y a 23 heures
It isn't just Pakistani. Bangladeshi Muslims are normally involved too.
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[–]Rob_Kaichin"Insane, for what it's worth." - A very stable genius. 7 points il y a 22 heures
East Pakistan, West Pakistan
/s
Let's take down the criminals; justice, not vengeance.
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[–]rubygeek 5 points il y a 15 heures
East Pakistan, West Pakistan /s
With diplomatic finesse like that, have you considered applying for the post of Foreign Secretary? You'd clearly be less offensive than Boris.
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[–]oguz-38 2 points il y a 11 heures*
It's not even an Asian thing since there are no Iranian, Turkic or Indonesian people doing this. It's what it is, a problem with some Pakistani people.
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[–]VisovariMiddle Englander 5 points il y a 9 heures
racist
If you can convert or apostatise from it, it's not a race.
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[–]DaveChildLib Dem / Pro EU 5 points il y a 14 heures
pretty sick of being called xenophobic or racist for trying to have a conversation about this.
It depends how you word it. It's usually pretty clear if someone is just looking to stir up racial tensions or if they are interested in the facts.
Pointing out that British Asians make up a disproportionate number of grooming gang convictions is entirely fair. Pretending this is an exclusively Muslim problem, or that it's targetting just white girls, or that there aren't British people and/or white people doing this, or any one of a dozen other common misconceptions, is likely to lead to accusations like that.
Framing the problem to suit a political agenda helps nobody. The situation is awful enough without the racists and xenophobes co-opting it and turning it into an excuse to divide society further.
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[+]viscountbongbreath nombre de points du commentaire sous la limite (33 enfants)
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[–]Subtropical_Blues 13 points il y a 14 heures
What do we as a country actually do about this?
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[–]netsecwarrior 28 points il y a 14 heures
A good start would be taking victim's complaints seriously. All these stories seem to include "we went to the authorities and they did nothing"
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[–]Mother0fChickens 7 points il y a 11 heures
We also need to have a talk about religion and what route it is taking. Unregistered schools are popping up all over the place teaching stuff that has no place in a modern society. We need to be able to say that this is not acceptable and not allow anyone to use religion, culture or tradition as an excuse.
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[–]hcazlock 8 points il y a 12 heures
Ban all immigration from Pakistan/Bangladesh for a start. If you allow it to continue you are condemning future children to this abuse. Unless you are incredibly wealthy you should not be allowed to move here from a third world country, end of.
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[–]BigLenEuler 20 points il y a 14 heures
Inaction in these cases plays into the far-right's hands.
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[–]hcazlock 10 points il y a 12 heures
Many of the people you are calling "far right" were the first to try and raise this issue and that is the reason they are now being called "far-right".
Wise up and think for once.
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[–]BigLenEuler 7 points il y a 12 heures
Read my post history; I don't think I have ever labled anyone far-right. I think you have misunderstood my comment, I'm saying that doing nothing about this [the rape gangs], gives the far-right powerful tools to radicalize people. I don't for a second believe that everyone who has been highlighting this issue is far-right.
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[–]HipPocket 2 points il y a 6 heures
Lord Pearson posed for a photo with "Tommy Robinson" outside the Palace of Westminster after asking his question.
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[–]MrZakalweEverything is historic. 6 points il y a 12 heures
Yup. If mainstream society wont deal with a fear that gets right down to the murky roots of humanity as a species (mass rape by the other) it's all going to get messy (or messier, anyway).
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[–]FrozenToast1 41 points il y a 21 heures
They were Pakistani Muslims.
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[–]DaveChildLib Dem / Pro EU 26 points il y a 14 heures
No, they were a pretty comprehensive mixture of races:
In 2011 CEOP published an analysis of possible offenders who had been reported to it for “street grooming and child sexual exploitation”. CEOP said that offenders in these cases often act in groups.
It analysed over 1,200 of these possible offenders and found the vast majority were male. Around 30% were white, 28% Asian and 3% black and 38% were unknown. When CEOP looked only at a group of around 940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
Another study by CEOP from 2013 looked at data collected from 31 police forces. It found that of around 300 offenders whose ethnicity was provided and who were part of groups targeting children based on their vulnerability (rather than because they had a specific sexual interest in children), 75% had been categorised as Asian and 17% as white, 5% were listed as black and 3% as Arab.
Of the groups who did target children based on a sexual interest in them (fewer than 20 people studied) all were white.
We gain nothing by pretending it's one ethnic group.
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[–]TheBigJV 21 points il y a 13 heures
Perhaps I'm being an idiot (and please correct me if I am) but wouldn't we expect the majority of crimes, regardless of crime, to be perpetrated by someone who is white, considering we're a majority white population?
If we look at:
940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
Considering the UK's population is about 7% Asian and 89% White, does that not show it's disproportionate offending by Asians? As it's so much higher than their population %.
Although, there's an argument to be had about detection rate distorting it.
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[–]DaveChildLib Dem / Pro EU 5 points il y a 13 heures
Yes, it's completely fair to point out that Asians are heavily overrepresented. There's a big difference between that, and pretending it's only Muslims or only Asians.
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[–]knot_city 16 points il y a 9 heures
Yes, it's completely fair to point out that Asians are heavily overrepresented. There's a big difference between that, and pretending it's only Muslims or only Asians.
It's overwhelmingly Asians, particularly those from Pakistan. You're trying to analyse this based on raw numbers instead of per head of population.
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[–]scud121 13 points il y a 13 heures
But you are though. These children are targeted because they are vulnerable, and in those cases it's 75% asian.
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[–]FiteMeNow 2 points il y a 8 heures
white
Interesting how it doesn't specify British whites.
It's clear that those whites are Turkish/Albanian/North African.
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[–]FriendlyCommie 10 points il y a 11 heures
"Your wives are farmland for you; use them however you wish." Surah 2:223
Where do these Muslim men get their ideas from?
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[–]dingoperson2Love of Europe, none of EU 20 points il y a 16 heures
Let's say a young white girl dressed in skimpy clothing somehow was spending a lot of time by herself in the Pakistani countryside.
How would she be treated? Very likely very badly.
The people who would treat her that way, have been transported to the UK.
Results predictable and unsurprising.
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[–]thezeeshanarif 10 points il y a 17 heures
Just going to leave this here https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/
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[–]Awesomefusion 9 points il y a 15 heures
In 2011 CEOP published an analysis of possible offenders who had been reported to it for “street grooming and child sexual exploitation”. CEOP said that offenders in these cases often act in groups.
It analysed over 1,200 of these possible offenders and found the vast majority were male. Around 30% were white, 28% Asian and 3% black and 38% were unknown. When CEOP looked only at a group of around 940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
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[–]CarpeCyprinidaeSarah Champion for Labour leader 24 points il y a 15 heures*
So in fact proving that Asian men are disproportionately likely to be child rapists? Given that they are no more than 4% of the population but over a third of the offenders?
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[–]thezeeshanarif 7 points il y a 15 heures*
The dude that posted the CEOP excerpt very carefully neglected to post the bit right after, where they say themselves that the data is too patchy to draw conclusions from.
8% of the population in 2011, and that numbers probably gone up.
Actually, the sample size is too small to prove anything, and there have been questions raised regarding bias. It's all in the fullfact article, but let me just drop it here too:
Researchers point out that the disproportionate representation of people of Asian ethnicity in studies on grooming gangs may be caused by a number of things including: bias in the collecting of information, the high profile nature of similar cases, and small sample sizes. This might mean, for example, that when recording information about offenders or suspected offenders, the organisations involved are more likely to record ethnicity if the person is Asian. Or it might mean that, because they had seen similar cases in the media, child protection organisations look out for specific types and patterns of grooming and abuse more than others leading to similar types of groups being caught.
A large proportion of cases in these studies also have the ethnicity of the offender recorded as unknown, so this could potentially affect the reliability of the information on ethnicities that we do know. In many of the cases no more information was known other than that the offender was described as Asian. This could cover a wide variety of ethnicities and nationalities like Chinese, Pakistani, Indian as well as a range of British-Asian ethnicities, depending on the study.
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[–]Victuswolf 8 points il y a 14 heures
disproportionate representation
That's whats already happened with police refusing to take action in cases in the 90's and early 2000 because they feared being labeled racist.
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[–]CarpeCyprinidaeSarah Champion for Labour leader 3 points il y a 13 heures
It is a good point that if a catch up of historical offences is taking place we should compare the Pakistani-ness of current defendants to the average ethnicity of convicted cases over say 20 years though. If there was more willingness to prosecute white offenders in the past then the current average is skewed
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[–]crocodile-logic 8 points il y a 14 heures
At first glance this would seem to suggest that the group identified as Asian are overrepresented (compared to the proportion of Asian people in the general population) but CEOP said that the data was too inconsistent to draw “national conclusions” from.
Literally the next paragraph.
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[–]rollthreedice 4 points il y a 15 heures
I think you should actually read the whole article you posted. It doesn't say what you seem to think it does.
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[–]thezeeshanarif 5 points il y a 14 heures
I know haha, that's why I posted it :) just trying to bring some objectivity
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[–]Maybe_Im_Really_DVAMUH BREXITEERS 20 points il y a 15 heures
Love how so many people on this sub try to actively bury their hands or go out of their way to defend Islam, it's so weird for me to see. Islam gets brought up but everyone's saying what about white people? Why are so many white people so self depreciating yet will scream the praises of Islam from the rooftops.
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[–]iloomynazi"Metropolitan Elitist" 9 points il y a 12 heures
I’m always accused for ‘standing up for Islam’, but actually I hate it. It’s backwards and barbaric, as is every other religion in my opinion.
What I do stand up for though is Muslim people. Because when people say ‘can’t we have a conversation about this without being called racist’, they invariably then go on to say something racist.
By all means, educate the police on this particular style of crime and the circumstances around it so they can better intervene in future. Let’s discuss policy changes that will better enable the police to do their jobs. Don’t support actions that will end up unfairly targeting innocent individuals based on their race. That’s the line between ‘having a conversation’ and being racist.
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[–]80sWasteman 16 points il y a 15 heures
Because some people are in denial that parts or multiculturalism have failed.
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[–]jonnyhaldane 3 points il y a 6 heures
It's called 'Islamophilia'
Meaning 'look how virtuous I am'
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[–]niftythrow 4 points il y a 11 heures
These plebs are usually University students (a progressive breeding ground) or Middle class who living in 99% white areas.
These people are 1 step above the actual rapists in my opinion.
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[–]Doki_Yuri_is_Life 17 points il y a 23 heures
About fucking time
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[–]AdamantiumHip 2 points il y a 7 heures
This is the fault of pc culture, where fear of being branded racist has made that more of a crime than actual rape.
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[–]stevenfries 27 points il y a 23 heures
What if we talk about the actual crime? Instead of going on tangents about religion?
People have been talking about Islam at leat for 2 years on this sub and they didn’t get anywhere useful.
Are white people racist because they post videos online of them having sex with Asian underage girls? Or are they pedophiles?
Find ways to prevent these crimes from happening again, find the perpetrators. Stop creating unnecessary distractions over unfeasible theories.
All this nonsense of trying to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Nobody will agree to expel 2.5 million Muslims from the UK because of 10, 100 or even 1000 did. Get some sense of reality.
And the bullshit of immigration control does nothing to find the criminals already living here.
Same way we won’t have knife crime laws for blue people if we find there are more knife crimes from blue people than orange people. Orange people still need to be answering to the same laws.
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[–]CrabAcheLabour 14 points il y a 22 heures
Obviously this shouldn't be put on the feet of all Muslims (after all, it's largely been restricted to a certain Muslim community, so it seems harsh to blame, say, East London Bengalis) but I feel the ubiquitous denunciations of Kaffir is one attitude that doesn't help.
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[–]lordfoofooSouth Park Neutral - I hate all of 'em 8 points il y a 13 heures
What if we talk about the actual crime? Instead of going on tangents about religion?
What if the religion advocates the crime?
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[–]StopHavingAnOpinion 12 points il y a 23 heures
What if we talk about the actual crime? Instead of going on tangents about religion?
Thats like saying 'lets talk about the crime, not the white supremacists/nazi's/feminists/other group who keep doing it, you can't ignore the common patterns or motives behind them.
The reason it is always about this is because these statistics are over proportionally in the Muslim community, a thing that most of the 'racists' had been saying for some time, and we chose to ignore these cases exactly for that reason.
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[–]RoglopsAnarcho-Communist 23 points il y a 17 heures
Haha weird equivalence of feminists with nazis.
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[–]JimRayCooper 12 points il y a 22 heures
Thats like saying 'lets talk about the crime, not the white supremacists/nazi's/feminists/other group who keep doing it.
Their Christian belief or cultural upbringing isn't put front and centre though.
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[–]FactuallyInadequate 14 points il y a 22 heures
I think it's a push to compare a religion with self defined extremist groups, especially when it has millions of peaceful members while white nationalists/Nazis/feminists will normally admit they're openly hostile. Yes, there's a large group of Muslims who are part of the problem but not all of them. Just like there's a large group of white people who do the exact same but I'm sure you don't.
Rape is a problem. Cases not being taken seriously is a problem. Religion isn't the problem, when given the chance some men are just pure filth, whether they're religious or not.
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[–]Ciccone 9 points il y a 13 heures
Nazis and feminists really don't need to be in the same category here dude.
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[–]Awesomefusion 6 points il y a 16 heures
Religion is literally a self defined group though
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[–]kindamaybenot 7 points il y a 16 heures
“Let’s talk about the white male stats on crime”. No one says that because you’re looking at those people as more than just their sex/race/religion. You’re under simplifying a more complex issue. If a white Christian guy commits a crime you wonder if they had a drug problem or what their motive was, a Muslim person commits a crime and everyone always thinks they did because of religion. It’s not reality
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[–]OmNomDeBonBon༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ Mandelson take my energy ༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ 13 points il y a 23 heures*
Interesting that he mentions Sikhs and says the rapists were Muslims, instead of specifying that they were Pakistanis. Could it be that Lord Pearson is doing what the right have always done - pandered to Sikhs by demonising Muslims, so that they have some brown supporters they can refer critics to? They also exploit the fact that there's a lot of racism between Sikhs and Muslims (both directions).
Is he also ignorant of the fact that sexual abuse is just as prevalent in Sikh households as Muslim households?
Let's call a spade a spade: these are almost entirely Pakistani grooming gangs, and even then they're from specific areas of Pakistan. We can't be expected to understand Pakistani geography so I think "Pakistani grooming gangs" is a suitable description.
How do we solve the problem? Jail everybody found guilty of grooming for 10 years per rape, deny benefits to the wives (who are often complicit) and take their kids into care. Sick of soft UK sentencing - these people should have accumulated sentences of 100+ years yet they seem to get off with 5 or 10 years.
Edit: I'd also strip them of British citizenship if they're naturalised, as a lot of the older ones are. What should follow is a swift deportation back to their country of origin.
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[–]NothingSurprisesMeChief Door Opener @ 10 Downing St 🚪 48 points il y a 23 heures
Some of the Telford lot are already out of prison, and now the family of one of the victims is apparently under threat from having their home petrol bombed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5493247/amp/Father-murdered-Lucy-Lowe-told-careful-threat.html
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[–]joethepro36 3 points il y a 19 heures
Typical, death penalty for child rape would solve this.
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[–]E7Polar 3 points il y a 14 heures
I don't know why you are being downvoted they ruiend somebody's life.
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[–]SombreDusk 23 points il y a 23 heures
why is it so hard to believe sikh girls were targeted?
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[–]sausageparty2015 5 points il y a 9 heures
We should have listened to the fucking Sikhs in the 80s
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[–]TheWhiteEnglishLionnationalist - Third way 2 points il y a 8 heures
We should also take a page out of their book and form groups to defend the girls.
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[–]GSPsLuckyPunch 19 points il y a 23 heures
Could it be that Lord Pearson is doing what the right have always done - pandered to Sikhs by demonising Muslims, so that they have some brown supporters they can refer critics to? They also exploit the fact that there's a lot of racism between Sikhs and Muslims (both directions)
I think you are being extremely cynical.
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[–]lordfoofooSouth Park Neutral - I hate all of 'em 5 points il y a 13 heures
Because some weren't Pakistani, like the Somali gang, the common denominator is Islam. It's just that Pakistani's make up a large proportion of that population.
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[–]stevenfries 4 points il y a 23 heures
Why a specific part of Pakistan?
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[–]OmNomDeBonBon༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ Mandelson take my energy ༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ 49 points il y a 23 heures*
Parts of Pakistan are extremely tribal and inbred. It makes no sense to molest a local Pakistani girl because chances are you're related to her in some way, and you risk being killed if found out. She tells her parents, the dad rounds up the "elders" and has you firebombed.
Much easier for that kind of scumbag to pick on poor working-class white girls. Let's face it, anybody whose parents let them hang out after hours for extended periods of time hasn't come from a great home. What's the risk to the groomer in that scenario? Bugger all, because the parents are fucking useless and the kids are often in care.
I'm pretty sure if you looked into the backgrounds of these groomers they'd all originate from areas of Pakistan which were extremely tribal. It's also why Pakistanis in the UK are at much higher risk of congenital diseases than other minorities or the general population; cousin marriage leads to lots of disabled babies, and most Pakistanis in the UK come from areas with extremely high levels of inbreeding, especially first-cousin marriage.
The tribal aspect is what drives this kind of mass grooming. People don't seem to understand, but there's a damn good reason why it's extremely rare to find an Indian grooming gang, a Bangladeshi grooming gang, a Jewish grooming gang, a Polish grooming gang etc. in the UK despite high levels of those people residing in the UK...it's because those countries/communities aren't tribal and don't have high degrees of inbreeding which leads to rapists looking outside the group for victims.
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[–]Blussy96Centre-right, probably 10 points il y a 20 heures
70% come from a town called Mirpur, which is socially backwards even by Pakistan's standards.
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[–]CarpeCyprinidaeSarah Champion for Labour leader 8 points il y a 16 heures
Now let's be fair here. Mirpuri society is socially backward even by hyena-pack standards..
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[–]CrabAcheLabour 22 points il y a 22 heures
Literally they're all from the villages around Mirpur that were flooded when Pakistan made the Mangla Dam. At the time, the UK was suffering a worker shortage and so the government agreed to take the displaced Kashmiris as a bit of cheap labour.
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[–]OmNomDeBonBon༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ Mandelson take my energy ༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ 15 points il y a 20 heures
Huh, TIL. Certainly explains everything. We didn't get the Pakistani academics, the scientists, the engineers, the poets...we got the worst of the worst, the socially conservative village dwellers who are still mentally in the 13th century.
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[–]Redplant96Reads Burke's wikipedia page once... 5 points il y a 19 heures
I'm not sure which way around it is but something like 70-30 are from Mirpur and the rest of from other parts of Pakistan, although I'd be a bit hesitant with:
We didn't get the Pakistani academics, the scientists, the engineers, the poets.
There are a very large number of Pakistanis here and whatever the final count is after these investigations I'm certain it's not going to be some ridiculous stat such as '50% of Pakistanis are rapists', this will definitely be a drop in the bucket, albeit a drop worryingly large relative to every other group.
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[–]34Mbit 7 points il y a 14 heures
'50% of Pakistanis are rapists'
If you want to talk about statistics, how about the 77% employment rate of White British people, and the 54% employment rate of Pakistanis in the UK? How about the 73% employment rate of White British women, and the 39% employment rate of Pakistani women. The same rate is true for Bangladeshis.
Why is roughly 5% of the UK population Muslim, but 14.4% of the Prison population Muslim?
Why do Muslims make up 0.5% of the armed forces population, when they make up 5% of the general population. This is exacerbated considerably when you consider those of poorer backgrounds (like working class white boys) flock to the forces in droves.
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[–]Tamazgha 5 points il y a 14 heures
Am I the only one here that thinks 1 rape victim is already too many? It seems like there need to be thousands before anyone would give a shit, which is horrific to say the least.
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[–]udderstompf 1 point il y a 13 heures
One person with UKIP associations exaggerates the numbers. No doubt this will be used to smear legitimate critics as hysterical, misinformed, misleading sneaks.
It will not work, though. This problem cannot be brushed under the carpet any more. I am glad Pearson is speaking out and I hope more will follow from both Houses.
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[–]ZypheREvolved 2 points il y a 12 heures*
Yes, we can and we will. It is time to deal with it. We will call these men out and their culture of using religion to protect themselves. Perversion and sex with barely teenage girls. Their attitude towards white women.
I've never been racist towards someone but a Pakistani woman was racist about my white skin once. I'm done with minorities being over-protected. If the innocent people of those minorities have an issue with us trying to remove cancer that they should be removing themselves, then they simply have to join us in the shaming of scum. The quicker these communities stop being in denial about their husbands and sons filthy behaviour brought over from their originating country.
The sooner we can find more ways to show them respect.
Until then I will continue being frustrated with minority communities who use religion to protect their entire people as if their skin and faith bond them. That is no different to a gang who is blindly loyal to one another!
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[–]wongieLiberal Remainer - the new Yellow Peril 4 points il y a 11 heures
We can sure talk about Islam and the role religion has played but just as some will see it as veiled racism and so dismiss it so too are those who solely label it a religious problem dismissing the socio-economic factors at play.
If we're to tackle the issue then we have to acknowledge those other factors too. Yes a common denominator is religion, most perpetrators are Muslim but most also have Pakistani backgrounds and most are poor and living/operating in deprived areas that enabled and helped them perpetuate the crimes they committed. If it was simply just a religious problem every Muslim across the country in all sections of society, nevermind the rest of the planet, would be perpetrating such crimes. Clearly that's not the case.
Multifaceted issues require multifaceted approaches rather than simply distilling it to a single problem.
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[–]RoglopsAnarcho-Communist 2 points il y a 17 heures
I am a horrendous lefty here but I don't understand why people are so keen to speak about Islam. Hear me out please, I do come from a position of ignorance and want to understand. For me, this shows how we should focus more on integration, more on education and also more on poverty to help these people properly integrate. I don't really understand why speaking about Islam really helps here since what are we going to do, ban islam? Can someone educate me on some of the reasons why it is important to isolate the religion and how this would help here?
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[–]tomatopathe 20 points il y a 15 heures
I'm pretty center left myself (and half Muslim, although not Pakistani).
I think it's time we accept that there's a certain community of people in Britain that commits these crimes, and that it's not racist to point that out (the truth isn't racist, sorry), but on the contrary it will be the only way to stop this from happening in the future.
These people, for some reason, happen to be Muslims from a certain region of Pakistan (and not Indian or North African or Iranian Muslims).
I would contend that it's racist to ignore this fact. Men from these communities are, statistically, at a higher risk of committing horrendous crimes against young women and girls.
First, criminal investigations and convictions need to take place, and not short sentences. This is criminal conspiracy to commit mass rape. The thousands of men who have drugged and raped these people need to never see the outside of a prison cell.
Furthermore, the community these men come from (because as we all know these are almost exclusively Pakistani) needs to be investigated, because something is clearly fucked up there. That does not mean treating all Pakistanis as rapists, but the reasons why this is happening need to be determined and excised. Something is perpetuating this behaviour in that subculture, and that needs to not be given a safe haven anywhere. I suggest we start by looking at ultra conservative nutjob religious figures who perpetuate this idea that non Muslim women are whores fit to be raped.
Lastly, the victims and their families need protecting from retaliation, and any retaliation needs to be dealt with harshly.
I'm a liberal but I refuse not to call a spade a spade.
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[–]Lucifer1903 9 points il y a 16 heures
Maybe integration is difficult because communities tend to self segregate e.g. Someone from group A is more likely to choose to live in an area where many other group A people live rather than move into a group B or C area.
Integration cannot happen when people are segregated, even if it's self segregation.
That's just my thoughts on the matter though.
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[–]hungoverseal 5 points il y a 9 heures
I'll preface this that I consider Islam and Muslims to be separate and I'm going to be taking a stab at Islam here, not Muslims.
Islam is so much more than a religion. It's a political, moral, legal, cultural system and more importantly an identity. If you feel like you're not a Brit, you need an identity. Islam is an incredibly strong one which these people have historical ties to. With the identity is imported all of the other stuff.
There's now two issues: 1) In-group, out-group morality. 2) Importation of culture and values from unstable and undeveloped areas of the world.
To do something horrible to someone else you usually have to dehumanize them. One way of doing that is by creating in-groups and out-groups. If you look at say the British and European legal systems they take great care to prevent minority groups from being maliciously targetted. A lesson learned in history from hundreds of years of big society and ever-improving legal systems. Islam does not have this and the people in rural Pakistan do not have this. Strong and fair legal and justice systems are what allows free, open and liberal cultural to thrive.
So you have a population that is relatively free, open and liberal. You have a smaller population within that society that has it's own identity and rejects the concept of free, open and liberal. It does not respect the societies legal system or values or culture. It's then very easy to dehumanise members of that society to justify your own ego and your own vices, cruelty or malice.
In terms of practical things we can do. The first is taking all religion off a pedestal, banning religious schools altogether and improving education.
The second is to really promote enlightenment and western liberal values hard within our society rather than thinking about tea, scones and Waterloo.
The third is to help give immigrants an identity other than Islam. You won't be able to remove the Islamic identity nor really should we. More a higher identity. Like being a fan of your club in football but a fan of football also.
The fourth is to actively try and liberalise and humanise Islam by funding and promoting the Muslims pushing that agenda rather than funding the hateful fucks in Saudi Arabia etc.
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[–]knot_city 3 points il y a 9 heures*
For me, this shows how we should focus more on integration, more on education and also more on poverty to help these people properly integrate. I don't really understand why speaking about Islam really helps here since what are we going to do, ban islam? Can someone educate me on some of the reasons why it is important to isolate the religion and how this would help here?
If we get a wide spread admittance that multiculturalism is a failed policy and should no longer be pursued then we can begin to address the problems you outline. We've created multiple ingroup outgroup societies within our borders and it's time for the people who supported that policy and especially those who encouraged it to share a portion of the blame for the damage its done.
You can't integrate people into British society if you encourage them to settle with other immigrants in certain parts of a city. You institutionally rob them of the ability to feel part of our society, which is particularly damaging to second generation migrants who don't have the benefit of the identity their parents have.
Mass immigration even with the best policy underpinning it is a disaster. Mass immigration with a policy of multiculturalism is one step worse.
People make this about Islam because they see how easy it is to draw the stories and morals in the Quran and Hadith to the actions of these men. Islam is the base of their culture, to the same degree that Christianity was the base of ours a century ago. It's easier to make this about Islam than it is to make it about brown skinned people for Pakistan because one gets you abused as a racist and the other simply as 'Islamophobic'. They are both identifiers that accurately distinguish the perpetrators from the general population.
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[–]Awesomefusion 8 points il y a 16 heures
what the fuck does poverty have to do with raping girls?
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[–]RealityOverdrive 2 points il y a 14 heures
Its the left insistence on mass immigration that has caused this mess
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[–]a_nice_young_manNot like this... not like this 5 points il y a 13 heures
Importing people from the third world is importing third word problems
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[–]AoyagiAichou 2 points il y a 13 heures
For me, this shows how we should focus more on integration, more on education and also more on poverty to help these people properly integrate.
How can you do that when at the same time, a lot of people think "communities" are a great thing whist the very concept is directly contrary to integration?
http://www.fdesouche.com/970325-royaume-uni-sexprimant-a-la-chambre-des-lords-malcolm-pearson-denonce-les-millions-de-viols-de-filles-blanches-et-sikhs-par-des-musulmans
https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/973577187491221504
Grande-Bretagne : Lord Pearson de Rannoch a insisté auprès du gouvernement sur l’ampleur des scandales d’abus sexuels sur mineurs à Rotherham, Rochdale ou Telford.
S’exprimant à la Chambre des Lords, l’ancien dirigeant du parti Ukip a déclaré: « Ces filles sont généralement violées plusieurs fois par jour. »
« Des millions de viols de filles blanches et sikhs ont été perpétrés par des hommes musulmans, dont seulement 222 ont été condamnés depuis 2005 ».
Il a ajouté: « Le gouvernement demandera-t-il aux responsables musulmans si ce comportement de violence est accepté par le Coran? »
« Le gouvernement encouragera-t-il un débat national sur les différentes interprétations de l’islam, peut-on parler de l’islam sans être accusé de racisme? »
La députée conservatrice de Telford estime que la BBC (télévision publique) ne se soucie pas de cette affaire car les victimes sont des Blanches de la classe ouvrière.
Scandale des viols collectifs de Telford (UK) par des gangs pakistanais : « Le silence honteux de la télévision publique pour le bien de la diversité »
http://www.fdesouche.com/969589-scandale-des-viols-collectifs-de-telford-uk-par-des-gangs-pakistanais-le-silence-honteux-de-la-television-publique-pour-le-bien-de-la-diversite
Article de Doulgas Murray datant du 12 mars.
La première page du Sunday Mirror d’hier disait : «Le pire scandale d’abus sexuels sur mineurs de l’histoire de la Grande-Bretagne: des centaines de jeunes filles ont été violées, battues, vendues et certaines ont même été tuées.» Comme les scandales de Rotherham, Rochdale et Oxfordshire. Dans d’autres endroits, il semble que les victimes soient, une fois de plus, des filles britanniques blanches et les auteurs des hommes musulmans, principalement d’origine pakistanaise.
Nous apprenons une fois de plus comment, au cours des quatre dernières décennies, toutes les branches de l’État – y compris les travailleurs sociaux et la police – ont laissé faire ces viols collectifs d’enfants. Et nous apprenons – encore une fois – à quel point la peur des accusations de «racisme» ont fait que les identités des coupables aient été cachées et que les affaires n’ont pas été examinées.
Lorsque l’affaire a éclaté hier, elle a été couverte par une série d’autres journaux, y compris tous les concurrents du Mirror. Mais pas la BBC (télévision publique britannique). Comme l’a noté Ed West.
12 Mars
Ed West
@edwest
the scale of this across England is simply staggering. far worse than I thought possible, almost too horrific to comprehend. I can't think of anything in modern British history that comes close http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5487167/Telford-child-sex-scandal-involving-1-000-Britains-worst.html …
Ed West
@edwest
'The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance' pic.twitter.com/4zZaSC8Fa6
13:27 - 12 mars 2018
Voir l'image sur Twitter
178
93 personnes parlent à ce sujet
Informations sur les Publicités Twitter et confidentialité
Ce n’est qu’après un bon nombre de commentaires hostiles à propos de cet oubli que la BBC a mentionné l’affaire cet après-midi. (Westmonster)
(…) Il est maintenant clair que la plupart des personnes occupant des postes d’autorité dans ce pays n’ont jamais voulu que des affaires comme celles de Telford, Rochdale ou Rotherham sortent. (…) Parce que de telles histoires gâchent le discours dominant que tiennent tout une génération de responsables.
Il est plus facile de continuer à essayer de tout couvrir. Et c’est pourquoi il y a maintenant un tel effort concerté pour arrêter, faire taire, bannir, rétrograder les personnes qui évoquent ou luttent contre ces viols collectifs en série. « Pour le bien de la diversité »
(…) The Spectator
------------------------------------------
Gromming gang sex abuse of children and teenagers by muslim Pakistani or Bangladeshi :
Aylesbury
Banbury
Bristol
Derby
Halifax
Keighley
Newcastle
Oxford
Peterborough
Rochdale
Telford
See the various reports at https://www.westmonster.com/
-------------------------------------------
Discussion
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/847v57/lord_pearson_were_looking_at_millions_of_rapes_of/#bottom-comments
Lord Pearson "We're looking at millions of rapes of white and Sikh girls by Muslim men, only 222 of whom have been convicted since 2005. Can we talk about Islam without being accused of hate crime?".TWITTER(twitter.com)
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[–]TheInvisibleGuests 159 points il y a 16 heures
Can someone explain to me why the common denominator here is Islam and not Pakistani men?
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[–]Crappy99 149 points il y a 1 jour
I don't know the cases, but is millions true? Anyone got any links to the numbers?
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[–]kriptonicxCan't we talk about this? 22 points il y a 21 heures
Does anyone have any numbers on how many men are predicted to be involved?
The "only" seems to suggest there are likely to be many more out there in?
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[–]Zingzongwingwong 2 points il y a 13 heures
This is a cultural phenomenon, not a religious one. However, their particular religion does help to shape the culture of Pakistan. And their religion has contributed to the lack of education, or any form of enlightenment, in that part of the world. We shouldn't use issues like this as a stick with which to beat over one billion people worldwide, but we should be having a conversation about education and enlightenment, with a particular focus on female education and equality.
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[–]BlunderingFool 3 points il y a 12 heures
Being taught that outside groups (kaffars) are less than second class citizens and that they should be 'subdued' certainly doesn't help.
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[–]Gripey 1 point il y a 9 heures
It's not a stick to beat up the muslim world, is it? It is the need to discuss how to protect British girls (whatever colour) from predatory and criminal sexual exploitation. Would I let me daughter live/rent in a predominantly muslim area? Not a fckn chance, unless she is chaperoned everywhere, like devout muslim girls are. Is she at risk from men generally? maybe, but the chances are worse in some places than others. Remember that girl who was sexual assaulted three separate times in central london? She was finally helped by passerby's because she was unconscious in the street. It used to be that being alone wasn't a GUARANTEE of being attacked.
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[–]Zingzongwingwong -1 point il y a 9 heures
But how does blaming Islam change any of that? All it will do is isolate these communities even more. Rather than demonising an entire religion, we need to have an honest conversation. These communities need to acknowledge that there is a cultural problem, which undoubtedly is influenced by Islam. But Islam in isolation isn't the root cause. There are also agents out there using this as an excuse to demonise Islam, and that's as insidious as the abuse itself.
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[–]Gripey 2 points il y a 8 heures
Reminds me of the circular argument when the judge said young women were unwise to become so drunk they no longer had their wits about them in public. The screaming for her resignation for stating an unpopular truth contrasts with the likelihood of any intelligent person to pay heed. Do we integrate "these communities" by ignoring these dastardly crimes? You have no idea how much contempt they have for you, or yours, if you are western. I really hope they can be integrated, because the alternative is a future civil war. But the signs aren't great, unless modern muslims can turn their back on the medieval parts of their culture, which maybe possible with the internet and whatnot. or it may just help them remain separate. and truth is the first casualty of war.
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[–]Zingzongwingwong 1 point il y a 7 heures
You are clearly very fearful. And probably read too many right wing newspapers/websites etc. I'd hate to live my life like that. Fear is a very powerful driver of human behaviour, but you can break free. Critical thinking is your first step. These 'us' and 'them' arguments you keep making are far too simplistic in thought. Nothing is black and white, just many shades of grey. The modern world is a complicated place, and conversations should have layer upon layer of nuance. And the talk of civil war is utterly ludicrous, if you truly believe that you should probably seek some professional help.
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[–]Gripey [score caché] il y a 3 heures
I really hope they can be integrated, because the alternative is a future civil war.
Ok, IF they are not integrated, and they continue to immigrate and increase as a percentage of the population and there is no civil war, then the future is total domination. I don't see that happening. But it is a reasonable proposition, to which the arguments against are of course lacking.
It seems unlikely, but it has certainly happened elsewhere, many times. Does Britain have some magic property which will prevent this? Does a science denying, homophobic, democracy denying, Justice denying religious culture have a definite prosperous future for us all. Maybe. also maybe not.
The modern world is complicated, as you say, but I would be more reassured if you could point me to a successful and prosperous outcome to the experiment we are running here, because terrorism and murder are pretty common in many parts of this "modern" world. Just one would be nice. One without serious shortcomings. At a stretch, Turkey? but reallly, that isn't based on immigration. Hmm, nope, I'm stuck. Dubai?
Thing is, I was a cheerleader for immigration before I realised what was happening. The Chinese? Bring it on, 40,000 catholics offered refuge. No bombing so far. or paedophile rings.
Indians? sure, why not. again, no bombings, not a common sight in paedophiles sex rings even if they misbehave in the old country.
Africans? well, I'm 50:50. The bushmeat thing pisses me off, but again, with the exception of the I word, no real problems.
Australians. I love Australians.
Irish. well, they had their moments I guess. But we have free movement so they aren't exactly immigrants.
Poles. I like poles a lot. Again, ixnay on the bombing, pretty good workers.
Eastern Europeans generally. Not sure, but they are an unfriendly bunch. Mind you, they are treated like shit at work.
etc really. Nope I just am worried about Muslims. Maybe it's the medieval meets modern thing, where they are in the position to use modern tech to maintain their medieval beliefs, but it could all work out.
My problem is, after reading "The Strange Death of Europe" all I ever hear people say to Douglas is "how DARE you." which is not an argument.
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[–]Zingzongwingwong [score caché] il y a 2 heures
BONG!
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[–]dogsunverified 2 points il y a 12 heures*
The common denominator is indeed religion, and whilst I don't disagree culture plays a big part, don't tell me we shouldn't be criticising stupid ideas, because no religion is above reason, and if you want to argue that then gtfo.
Now, I am not saying all religions are built on stupid ideas, but all religions being man-made and all, have incredible flaws that we cannot brush under the carpet.
If someone's feelings are hurt because of criticism about their "chosen" religion, why wouldn't they acknowledge the criticism and try to fix the problem? The reason is that the criticism of religion is often taken as a personal attack by religious people, usually because culture and religion are so interlinked for some individuals, but we shouldn't allow these people to stop the conversation from happening. Everyone is invited to talk as long as they can respectfully articulate their ideas to others.
For me, it all boils down to "I value truth" over anything else, whether it makes me feel good or bad is irrelevant. So you can believe whatever you want, as long as you are not evangelically spreading misinformation and/or inciting violence.
The problem with Islam is not the people, it's the ideology.
"The Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter."
Read more: breakdown of violence in the quran with quotes.
Otherwise I'd recommend listening to Sam Harris, or Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins talk about why Islam in particular is the most threatening religion at this point in human history. I'd put links but these three guys are incredibly outspoken about the dangers of religion, so it should not take more than a minute to find a debate or interview on youtube where they discuss Islam in particular. Sam Harris in particular has a lot to say on Islam.
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[–]capt-chrisFuture Prime Minister 2 points il y a 15 heures*
SOMEBODY FUCKING SAID IT. I'm sick of nobody being allowed to criticise islam for its genuinely repellent traits, or its predisposition towards misogyny and racism, out of fear of being called "islamophobic" or having a fatwa declared on them. This NEEDS to be talked about. They are preying upon our girls and subverting our culture.
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[–]cash_dollar_money 3 points il y a 10 heures
Not all Muslims are like that some peacefully practice their religion and are good people.
You can critise parts of Islam you don't like but that doesn't mean every Muslim believes every part of Islam the way you think they do.
Everyone deserves to be judged on their own actions and just because two people pray similarly doesn't mean you get to criticise both when one does something bad.
Some people who call themselves Christians believe in awful disgusting things and some are terrorists but we don't judge our local Methodist congregation because of them. We shouldn't do the same to groups of Muslims, they have a right to not be associated with bad people even when their religions share a name.
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[–]ThePortNinja 1 point il y a 10 heures
I definitely judge the local Methodist congregation this way.
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[–]CaridorAnyone but May, anyone but May 3 points il y a 12 heures
Thing is, shouldn't we focus on Pakistan and that region, since the overwhelming majority of "Asian" rapists come from there, rather than focusing on Muslims, when most of the world's Muslims don't come from there?
I mean, if there was a rape gang made entirely of Christians from Examplestan, we wouldn't be attacking Christians, would we?
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[–]capt-chrisFuture Prime Minister 0 point il y a 11 heures
When these rapes and child exploitations are overwhelmingly being conducted by muslims, you have to wonder whether muslim culture (it's not just Pakistani muslims that enjoy raping) has a problem with misogyny and rape. Child brides, parties where young boys are dressed as girls and raped, and hatred of anybody who isn't muslim (which makes them far more likely to be the target of rape). It's a problem with islam as a whole, not just Pakistani muslims.
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[–]CaridorAnyone but May, anyone but May 2 points il y a 11 heures
Well, yes, you get bad apples in any culture but it does seem like the vast majority are from Pakistan or neighbouring countries.
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[–]oguz-38 0 point il y a 11 heures
There is no one Islamic culture. As there is no one Christian, atheist, whatever culture.
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[–]CunningStunstundecided 0 point il y a 12 heures
The thing is there are hundreds of thousands of muslims in the UK from various different backgrounds and cultures that go about their daily lives. A British muslim would have different mindset to a middle eastern muslim.
You can criticise the religion all you like mate but don't put out blanket blames on all followers of the religion.
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[–]I_Always_Truthpost 1 point il y a 15 heures
Not good
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[–]Sphinkle 1 point il y a 11 heures
What did he say about Islam then? Or did he just ask that question?
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[–]_tpyo 1 point il y a 10 heures
can't you talk about crime without mentioning religion?
S'not hard.
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[–]Larenhire 1 point il y a 9 heures
No.
Source: The retards that make up this subreddit are the same retards that are supposed to enforce the law.
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[–]Sonos 1 point il y a 6 heures
Bravo Lord Pearson.
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[–]franciseight 1 point il y a 5 heures
The hate crime laws are part of the apparatus used to suppress the righteous anger of victims and their families. None of these allegations are news, ask anyone with daughters. Everybody I know who has children cannot send them to school around here because the schools are about 90%. Between the ages of 11 and about 18 girls must be kept close to the family and away from parks, fairgrounds, leisure centres, cineplexes, shopping malls and pizza restaurants lest they be approached. It is the case that underage girls are easily manipulated by older boys with drugs and alcohol. Their patters are well rehearsed and effective and the hotels and restaurants cater for their abuse. The shocking cruelty of their abusers has been covered up for decades by police and politicians alike using laws to suppress the awful truth about life on this island.
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[–]wlondonmatt [score caché] il y a 4 heures
Millions seriously?
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[–]Userofreddit1234 [score caché] il y a 3 heures
maybe it wouldn't seem hateful if you didn't use stupid exaggerations like "millions of rapes"
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[–]RavelsBoleroClassic Liberal. Not "leftist pansy" [score caché] il y a 2 heures
Probably the best thing anyone has said in the Commons in 10 years or more
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[–]Jim_Nash 2 points il y a 21 heures
And can we consider the possibilty that while "political correctness" may explain the inaction on the part of a presumed "white" police force, the other explanation, that there are Muslims in high places in the police who are covering for their own kind generally and even potentially covering for their own complicity in these sex rings, is something that should be looked into?
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[–]billy_tables 2 points il y a 19 heures
How high?
What sort of rank would you have to be to cover this up?
What procedure(s) would you use to cover it up?
How many police officers at that rank are there in the UK?
How many of them are Muslims?
How long would it have been going on?
What would the evidence of that look like?
How much of that evidence exists?
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[–]Jim_Nash 1 point il y a 10 heures
All good questions which a light needs shining on.
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[–]billy_tables 1 point il y a 5 heures
Try to consider the evidence before coming up with a theory next time
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[–]Jim_Nash [score caché] il y a 4 heures
The evidence will be there, and should be looked at.
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charger plus de commentaires (2 réponses)
[–]tristanfinn 1 point il y a 20 heures
"Rape Culture" is wrong, unless it is sanctioned by the Koran, Haddiths, Sunna, and Sharia - then it is a right and duty. Allah has clearly sent a message to all Muslims - take what you want from the unbelievers 'be harsh with them.' 57 Muslim countries in the world, and each one more miserable than the other. A failed system whose 'refugees' seek to set up anew in each country they bring 'immigration jihad' to. Inish Allah, indeed - in deed.
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[–]Gripey 1 point il y a 9 heures
Maybe this will be the time when it doesn't all turn to shit. Maybe some magic British thing will turn things around. Just because it has never worked before... There is no real solution, other than denial. Because acknowledgement just makes it worse. The question is, would you want to know if you were dying?
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[–]tristanfinn 1 point il y a 9 heures
I sincerely hope so. There are of course many different versions of Islam, maybe one of the kinder, gentler versions will win out. I am in the US and we generally don't have the kind of Muslim neighborhoods you seem to have in the UK and the EU. People are dispersed. I have several Muslim friends; I do not talk about religion with them because they do not say much about it themselves. Most religions change over time, and some go out of business.
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[–]deathschemistI WANT OFF MRS. MAY'S WILD RIDE 1 point il y a 16 heures*
the problem is that people who talk about the rapes perpetrated by muslim men are often pushing a racist agenda while doing so, or are often also known for saying outrageously racist shit, or are part of a party that is known to have a lot of racist members, you know, like ukip, who lord pearson is the leader of.
not to mention, talking about it as if it's the entirety of Islam that's the problem is incredibly bigoted.
but you know what, i even have a solution for ya that isn't problematic as fuck. increase police funding (also send out regular memos that they should treat rape claims seriously), increase school funding, and add "what rape is and why it's bad" to the school curriculum under PSHE. nip the problem at the bud, so to speak. no need to persecute anyone, just fucking educate. maybe it'll take a decade or two for the effects of those to all be seen, however, it will have an effect without resorting to bigotry.
oh yeah, and make sure everyone is subject to the same laws. you know?
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[–]scud121 1 point il y a 13 heures
the problem is that people who talk about the rapes perpetrated by muslim men are often pushing a racist agenda while doing so, or are often also known for saying outrageously racist shit, or are part of a party that is known to have a lot of racist members, you know, like ukip, who lord pearson is the leader of.
This is part of the problem, yes, not all Muslim men form grooming rape gangs, but nearly all grooming rape gangs are formed of Muslim men. Bear in mind that they did not choose to be muslim, it's a fact of birth and indoctrination. It's very easy to create mindset that the rapists are Muslim, therefore Muslims are rapists, and it's not helped by nutters like Tommy Robinson.
Also bear in mind that this has been going on since the 80s, making it a generational problem as well as a cultural one. The vast majority of Pakistanis that I know find it abhorrent, but they don't grass each other up either.
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[–]Andysmith94 -10 point il y a 23 heures
Only if we can start talking about men without being accused of sexism.
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[–]MorgoffFar Centre 12 points il y a 22 heures
I'm not sure if you are, but when people say "why isn't this a men issue instead of a Muslim/Pakistani issue" I wonder if people think having a cock/testosterone affects your attitude to the world as much as the culture you're brought up in does.
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[–]Andysmith94 7 points il y a 21 heures
I'm just saying that if you're arbitrarily going to choose one particular trait of the demographic (i.e. Muslim) and claim that the issue stems entirely from that trait then you shouldn't get annoyed if someone else comes along and arbitrarily chooses a different trait (i.e. male) for their explanation.
There are 1.8 billion Muslims in the world, that's 1 in every 4 people. Men make up one in every 2. In both cases, there are far too many people to paint everyone with a single brush.
Besides, between BBC grooming children for years and the numerous catholic rape priests uncovered across the world it's not like you can claim non-Muslim men are paragons of virtue.
I absolutely agree that your personality and actions in life have nothing to do with your cock (or lack thereof) and are entirely determined by the culture you are brought up in. I'm just less eager to point fingers at someone else's culture before I've had a good hard look at my own.
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[–]Awesomefusion 3 points il y a 15 heures
Are you really denying the phenomenon that is pakistani-muslim rape gangs?
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[–]Andysmith94 2 points il y a 13 heures
not at all, I'm just trying to make people see the hypocrisy behind getting outraged and calling for mass deportation of all pakistani muslims because of their evil culture when there's more than enough evil in our own.
If these people moved from Pakistan to the UK, renounced Islam and either became devout catholic clergymen or got a job in media/parliament before setting up their rape gang then it would be out of the news by the end of the month.
My point is that everyone spends so much time focusing on the Pakistani-Muslim part that it leaves little to no time to focus on the rape gang part.
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[–]Awesomefusion 3 points il y a 13 heures
If there were Irish Catholics or Czech atheists coming here and engaging in this stuff I think people would react the same, I don't actually believe Islam has too much to do about it apart from a few sayings of Muhammed, It's just this particular demographic seems to keep popping up.
The reason people focus on the pakistani-muslim part so much now though is because they were brown and not white it let them get away with it for ages and no one in the police wanted to be outed and shunned as the "racist" for pointing it out.
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[–]MorgoffFar Centre 5 points il y a 20 heures
I'm just saying that if you're arbitrarily going to choose one particular trait of the demographic (i.e. Muslim) and claim that the issue stems entirely from that trait then you shouldn't get annoyed if someone else comes along and arbitrarily chooses a different trait (i.e. male) for their explanation.
I don't think either choice here is arbitrary. You could say Muslim due to the general treatment of women in most Muslim majority countries or male because men are almost always the rapists.
It's whether or not the logic that takes someone to that conclusion stands up to scrutiny. But no it's not logical to assume every Muslim in the world is a rapist.
I absolutely agree that your personality and actions in life have nothing to do with your cock (or lack thereof) and are entirely determined by the culture you are brought up in. I'm just less eager to point fingers at someone else's culture before I've had a good hard look at my own.
I get what you're saying. But if you were to compare attitudes towards rape amongst men in Pakistan to attitudes towards rape in the UK how do you think they'd line up?
I don't think foreign cultures should be beyond criticism merely on principle.
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[–]Andysmith94 0 point il y a 12 heures
Foreign cultures should absolutely be subject to criticism, but we don't control foreign cultures and we have no power to enact change in them.
Criticise foreign cultures all you like, I'm sure Pakistan does have pretty poor attitudes towards women and maybe that is why these men decided to set up these circles. But their clients were UK citizens, the neighbours who stood by and did nothing were UK citizens, the police who knew what was happening and yet still did nothing are a UK police force.
For years they got away with running large scale rape gangs because we accepted it culturally. It was our culture, not theirs, which let it happen.
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[–]Mynameisnearl 2 points il y a 14 heures
Only if you're prepared to admit that would imply genetics is the issue.
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[–]Andysmith94 0 point il y a 13 heures
I don't really get why it implies genetics is the issue.
Men tend to have shorter hair, like cars, play more sports and commit sexual assault. Do you seriously think that the reason for these tendencies is genetics? Are you seriously completely oblivious to the elements of British culture which have influenced your personality since birth?
Genetics are not the only thing which determines how a British born man chooses to act.
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[–]Mynameisnearl 1 point il y a 12 heures
Those things are generally true of men worldwide. Yes. Men commiting more sexual assault is a result of genetics. If a woman sexually assaults a man she is likely to be burdened with a pregnancy and a child. Other way round the guy gets to pass on his genes for almost no cost.
Taking risks is also a male thing, worldwide.
You got me on the hair thing though. That isn't genetic. Luckily for me it's a total red herring.
Oh and I'll throw in all these words and you can add them wherever you like. Average Per capita Not all
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[+]barneygale nombre de points du commentaire sous la limite (2 enfants)
[–]StopHavingAnOpinion -1 point il y a 23 heures
actually, yea.
Thats what the entire 'meToo' movement was about, was it not? rise in assaults or whatever.
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[–]andyjonesx 1 point il y a 22 heures*
That one really put me in a pickle, considering I employ my wife.
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[–]worstdamnday 0 point il y a 17 heures
They really went overboard with the whole "power" thing.
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[–]please-replace -3 point il y a 18 heures
So if anybody commits a crime now we have to link it to either islam, Christianity, atheism etc? It was discovered today that big atheist companies are not paying fair tax, an atheist mopped gang has been stealing Jewellery in London. Christian politicians pedophile group dating back to 1960 etc
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[–]tomatopathe 11 points il y a 15 heures
If there were 60 million companies but only 5 million were atheist, and 99% of tax dodging companies are atheist, then yeah, let's find out what the hell is going on with atheist companies and why some of them commit tax fraud.
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[–]wiztwasgreen surger 1 point il y a 12 heures
"Millions" is he being literal or inflama tory I can not tell?
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[–]SqueakyPoP 1 point il y a 11 heures
Can we talk about it without being accused of a hate crime?
The answer is no
Basically if you offend anyone for any reason its a "hate incident" and you're going to jail
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[–]forallmyfans2 -2 point il y a 14 heures
Lmao at this shitflake. 'can we FINALLY get back to racism?'
No sugartits. You've always been able to criticise Islam. Religion is backwards as fuck. You just can't go around calling all British Muslims rapists because 0.02% of them are sex offenders.
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[–]Petey-Monster 0 point il y a 12 heures
I dunno, have we got a figure for the number of white guys who've raped women in that time?
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[–]MrZakalweEverything is historic. 6 points il y a 12 heures
Yup- pretty similar total numbers of offenders.
Difference is one of those groups only makes up 3% of the population making them vastly overrepresented (clue: it isn't white people).
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[–]Petey-Monster 0 point il y a 12 heures
Funny that.
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[–][effacé] il y a 20 heures
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[–]piratemurray 1 point il y a 14 heures
Que Mehdi Hassan
Mehdi Raza Hasan es una periodista política británica, locutora y autora.
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[–]KyloBender -4 point il y a 13 heures
Glad he’s saying it. It’s time people realised he existential threat Muslims pose to our democracy.
A total ban on Muslim immigration and a suspension of benefits to all Muslims needs to happen now.
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[–]negotiationtable 1 point il y a 11 heures
So why would you punish people that have nothing to do with these crimes? If you were catholic should we punish you because of the actions of some catholic priests?
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[–]niftythrow 4 points il y a 11 heures
Why are you so quick to gamble the future of non muslim children in this country?
If you can give me a single tangible benefit to mass Muslim immigration to this country I will concede.
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[–]negotiationtable 2 points il y a 10 heures
Wanting people to be punished based on the crimes they have committed instead of just punishing people based on religion is not gambling the future of anyone. In fact collective punishment has led to such bad things happening in the past, it is forbidden by the geneva convention.
By all means bring the law down like a ton of bricks on rapists. By all means create a better support network in these areas.
But if you punish people that have nothing to do with these rapes, for these rapes, simply because they share some features, you are going to a place that history shows is extremely dark. That is aside from it being simply fucking unjust.
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[–]niftythrow 2 points il y a 10 heures
So no benefits then.
We as a country have the right to pick and choose who are allow in this country, and until you can give me a single benefit of Muslim immigration over any other demographic then I am all for halting all of it.
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[–]negotiationtable 1 point il y a 10 heures
So no benefits then.
What?
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[–]qtna 1 point il y a 10 heures
THE MUSLIMS THE BENEFITS THE MUSLIMS THE BENEFITS
IT'S DISGUSTING
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[–]negotiationtable 2 points il y a 10 heures
You've perfectly captured the depth of thinking that has gone into the position :)
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[–]KyloBender 2 points il y a 11 heures
TBH I don’t consider it punishment to ban Muslims migrating here: it’s rational self interest. And I don’t believe it’s punishment to cut their benefits: we’ve seen what happens when they reach critical mass; just look as most Muslim countries. It’s just rational self interest.
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[–]negotiationtable 1 point il y a 11 heures
OK, we disagree on this.So what do you hope to achieve by banning the benefits of some random muslim person that has as much to do with these rapes as you or I?
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[–]KyloBender 2 points il y a 11 heures
To force them to fully integrate into the workforce which should help to give them a better sense of British values.
If you can live on benefits and remain within your own community (all the while having children) you won’t integrate. Benefits facilitate segregation.
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[–]habitsofwaste -6 point il y a 18 heures
And how many were raped by Christians? Methinks this is just a male problem and religion is just a grouping.
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[–]sealions_are_coolAlt Liberal 1 point il y a 13 heures
Considering that the estimate of rape incidence in the UK is about a hundred thousand women a year and he's talking about million of rapes over roughly a 15-year period, it's plausible that, at the peak, a majority of rapes in Britain were being committed by gangs of Muslim men against white teenage girls.
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[–]distopianBliss 0 point il y a 17 heures
I can see this is going to get lost in all the shouting. But it's worth reading (all of it): https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/
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[–]Awesomefusion 1 point il y a 15 heures
In 2011 CEOP published an analysis of possible offenders who had been reported to it for “street grooming and child sexual exploitation”. CEOP said that offenders in these cases often act in groups.
It analysed over 1,200 of these possible offenders and found the vast majority were male. Around 30% were white, 28% Asian and 3% black and 38% were unknown. When CEOP looked only at a group of around 940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
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[–]distopianBliss 2 points il y a 15 heures
Although, as the article expressly mentions, not all sexual exploitation is of children is done by gangs:
"Several newspaper articles written by Nazir Afzal, former Chief Crown Prosecutor for the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), as the source of her statement that nearly 90% of people convicted of child abuse offences were white men. "
And
"Where offenders’ ethnicity was known, 81% of people convicted of sexual offences in 2014 were white, 7% were black and 9% were Asian in 2014. These proportions were similar over the previous four years."
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[–]Awesomefusion 2 points il y a 15 heures
It says in the article though those figures are mixed with standard rape convictions also, not just underage girls predated on by groups of men.
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[–]distopianBliss 1 point il y a 14 heures
It says “For example, if someone is found guilty of raping a child under the age of 16, this will appear in the figures under ‘rape’ rather than ‘sexual activity with a minor’.”. So rape of a minor is counted as rape and it appears in the figures for rape. Which are at similar rates. So the main difference remains the modus operandi rather than total rate.
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[–]Redducer 0 point il y a 10 heures
Before talking about Islam:
Everybody should at least read 2 following surahs: Al-Fatiha (1 minute read, executive summary of Islam) and Al-Baqara (30 minute read).
As an exercise please roughly count verses about Islam and the proper practice of Islam, vs verses about what is not Islam and the untrue faithful - the ratio is very interesting.
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[–]DeadeyeDuncanIts comfy up here on my high horse -1 point il y a 14 heures
Why is leave.eu tweeting this? 🤔
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[–]Gripey 2 points il y a 9 heures
Every conflation of immigration feeds into their message that Europe is to blame. Even for non euro immigration, apparently.
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[–]mushroomchowDon't blame me, I voted Waldo. 1 point il y a 12 heures
Lord Pearson was the leader of UKIP in 2009/10 and leads the pro-Brexit pressure group "Leave Means Leave".
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[–]DeadeyeDuncanIts comfy up here on my high horse 1 point il y a 12 heures
Yeah, but this is pretty off topic for leave.eu, surely? Talking about it seems to me they're using their platform to spread a different agenda...
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[–]sleuid -15 point il y a 23 heures
I find it pretty amusing that compacted in to one sentence is a call for moderation, and a pretty extreme claim. Moderation - this is a real issue that we need to actually talk about guys, there's an issue with muslim men. And extremism - MUSLIM MEN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MILLIONS OF RAPES.
You can't make claim number 1 in the same sentence as claim 2, and you can't make claim 2 stand without some serious evidence. Let's say that 10,000 girls have been raped by these grooming gangs.... and they were raped an average of over 100 times each?
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[–]DontMuchTooThink 4 points il y a 22 heures
Is 100 times each so hard to believe when some of the girls were abused for, I dunno 4+ years, which would be 208 weeks. There were instances of gang rapes of 5+ men raping one girl in one night. I could go on, but number are feasible.
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[–]sleuid -2 point il y a 12 heures
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's something you actually have to provide some evidence for, not just assert. It's a wild accusation to just state.
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[–]DontMuchTooThink 3 points il y a 12 heures
What he says:
If we accept the views of our lead office(r) for child protection, of Rotherham's MP and the recent Jay and ??? report (refers to Alexis Jay report), we seem to be looking at millions of rapes...
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[–]sleuid -1 point il y a 12 heures
I've looked and I can't find any of those as sources for the 1 million rape claim. I mean, I don't get how you go from 1400 people in the Alexis Jay report, to 1,000,000 rapes. That doesn't add up to me.
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[–]scud121 [score caché] il y a 2 heures
That report is 1 town. 1400 girls raped multiple times stacks up really fast.
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[–]sleuid [score caché] il y a 2 heures
Right, that's 1 town. It's 1,400 girls. Show the fucking evidence that there's more. That's what I've been saying all along and no one can. There's just this lazy 'there were 1400 girls so CLEARLY ITS A MILLIONS RAPES'
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[–]scud121 [score caché] il y a une heure
Jesus christ, so you read at all? The links to the various rings in the uk have been plastered all over reddit for days now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexual_abuses_perpetrated_by_groups
Aylesbury child sex abuse ring Bristol child sex abuse ring Derby child sex abuse ring Halifax child sex abuse ring Keighley child sex abuse ring Newcastle sex abuse ring Oxford child sex abuse ring Peterborough sex abuse case Rochdale child sex abuse ring Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal Telford child sex abuse ring
These are not isolated cases, it's a vulnerable girl being groomed, raped and pimped out as a child prostitute. It's not "she was raped walking home" , it's "she was sold 2-3 times a night for 6 years." Even in cases they were not pimped out, they were being abused multiple times a week. This is not 1 victim, 1 rape. It's 1 victim, multiple rapes.
Even just using rotherham as an example, 1400 children, once a week for 10 years is 3/4 of a million.
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Comments, continued...
[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 238 points il y a 1 jour
Yep, pretty sick of being called xenophobic or racist for trying to have a conversation about this. It boggles my mind that people haven't realised this has been allowed to grow and was swept under the carpet by authorities because of that very reaction.
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[–]Othersideofthemirror 46 points il y a 14 heures*
People have tried to shut me down before, but I usually stop that dead by pointing out I'm a (SE) Asian Muslim.
Without a doubt there's a cultural element. I've literally had the "all white women are worthless whores" discussion with Bengalis, Pakistanis, etc many times because they tend to see my beard, brown skin, Muslim name and know my brand of social justice politics and so speak openly. This mindset is absolutely prevalent in Muslim working class communities, less so among middle class secularists of course.
It's just they don't realise I want to smash the patriarchy, so oppose misogyny, rape, sexual violence, and all forms of oppression against women so aren't on their side. There's no doubt there is a cultural, structural, systematic and institutionalised element to this, albeit not a construct of the majority/power in this country.
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[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 16 points il y a 14 heures
Good on you. I hope views such as yours are becoming much more prevalent in the muslim community. I think ultimately, it will be people like you that turn the tide on these attitudes rather than 'outsiders' like me. I feel like it is a problem that can only be solved from within.
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[–]Othersideofthemirror 8 points il y a 14 heures
Yes, but as an middle class-ish apostate and secularist I'm not really part of the community in question, these conversations happen at work.
But I hope that sometimes my voice heard by the right people.
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[–]SinisterDexter83 4 points il y a 9 heures
A big issue is that cultural self criticism is far more prevalent in the west, with its proud history of free speech and open discussion.
The philosopher Pascal Bruckner has written eloquently on the affect that the Holocaust had on Western morality. Before the Holocaust, there was no guilt over the ravages of the British empire, no sympathy for the genocide of the native Americans. The Holocaust came and was captured on film, and Europeans had to contend with the reality that they had within themselves the exact same savagery they had previously believed separated them from their Colonial subjects. The Europeans were forced to look at their own histories and reject the notion that they were superior to the "lesser races" of the world, which lead to much soul searching and a break from the patriotic disinclination to look upon and condemn their own atrocities.
Of course, this is a simplified and shortened explanation, but it's results are clear for anyone to see. Speak to an educated westerner about their counties history, and they will fall all over themselves to catalogue the horrors that their culture has been responsible for. You rarely get that with people form other cultures, not even the educated ones. You'll never hear a Pakistani talking about the Islamic slaughter of Hindus in their homeland - a series of atrocities that far outstripped even the evil that the Spanish and Portuguese inflicted on South America. You won't hear many educated Turks even acknowledge the Armenian genocide. Educated sub saharan Africans know all about European colonialism, yet seem completely unaware of Bantu, Malian and Zulu colonialism. Educated westerners take pride in their cultural guilt, they see it as a badge of honour to say "Weren't we just the worst!" and due to the awful doctrine of cultural relativism feel reticent to cast that same critical eye over the aforementioned "lesser races", the "noble savages" that in the previous Colonial era were seen as genetically less than "superior" Europeans and now are seen to simply lack moral agency at all.
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[–]andyjonesx 86 points il y a 22 heures
It's not xenophobic or racist to want to do something to stop the rapes. It usually quickly goes to that point when almost inevitably it goes from "the rapists are Muslim" to "Muslims are rapists".
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[–]HeCalledTheShitPoop9 16 points il y a 13 heures
The racism/xenophobia accusations come out long before that, immediately even.
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[–]Scetis 7 points il y a 12 heures
Mainly young adults with purple hair on that front...
Couldn’t agree with you more.
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[–]AmericanSamoa6666This whole subreddit just makes me angry 174 points il y a 22 heures
In my experiences this happens because the people who say
“X group is more likely to do a bad thing”
all to often go on to say some varient of
“This is why we should deport/ban group X”
Which is genuinely racist and just makes their side look bad. We need to moderate nutters on the right as well as nutters on the left if we want to have a productive discussion on how to deal with this.
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[–]diffianPlaid Cymru | Remain 18 points il y a 22 heures
Yes but nutters will be nutters and if they were easy to regulate then we wouldn’t have extremist politics to begin with. At the end of the day, you’ll always have two extreme sides to this debate, one shouting “no borders!” and the other shouting “deport all brown people!” All you can do is either ridicule these people and their opinions or just ignore them, hopefully they’ll crawl back to whatever obscure corner of the internet where they’ve carved out an echo chamber for themselves.
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[–]gildredge 28 points il y a 20 heures
Which is genuinely racist
Treating everyone as individuals and pretending groups don't exist is what allowed these men to prey on our children for decades.
The police and institutions of the state swore for years that there was no pattern, that these were individual instances of criminality, and the fact that the abusers were all Muslims had zero relevance. They refused to see them as part of a group.
https://youtu.be/qrUiHB5qJJ0?t=5m7s
I'd rather be called racist than see thousands of our children raped, I don't care whether it's fair or not.
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[–]cultish_alibi 87 points il y a 20 heures
Treating everyone as individuals
Is literally the only way to pursue justice.
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[–]PM_ME_YOUR_CATS_GRL 34 points il y a 19 heures*
If you mean it's the only way to convict someone justly, on an individual basis, then yes.
Otherwise, of course you can pursue a linked group in the name of justice IE. Nazi's, crime gangs, bank robbers, child rape ring etc etc
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[–]MrMuttleyUKDumb fuck of the day 16Feb2017 11 points il y a 14 heures
How would you discern if someone is a part of the group referred to as Bank Robbers? Age?, Skin colour, All citizens of Buttfuckistan are probably bank robbers?
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[–]Tekwulf 3 points il y a 12 heures
I'd wager we'd investigate individuals based on circumstantial and hard evidence linking them to the whereabouts of multiple bank robberies.
Or we could just round up all the black people. Black people are thieves, right?
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[–]danderpander 11 points il y a 20 heures
What about other criminal correlations? Do we set policy based on that too?
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[–]Toxicseagull 18 points il y a 15 heures
So like white nationalists? Or Irish Dissidents? Or 'urban' knife crime? Yeah we tend to. Why do you ask?
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[–]SweetBakchich 8 points il y a 15 heures
I think the correlation between crime and men would have been the obvious one, but you still missed it.
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[–]munchingfoo 14 points il y a 15 heures
See male conviction rate Vs female conviction rate and male incarceration rate Vs female incarceration rate...
Men are almost certainly the most categorised group when it comes to the criminal justice system and I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing.
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[–]TheSuperLlama 5 points il y a 14 heures
Do you have the weighted per population number of muslim paedophiles to white christian paedophiles in the UK though, it could be completely and rationally argued that the amount of paedophiles is roughly the same, the only reason this grew to the scale that it grew to is because of a lack of action by the police (in which, a lot of the police weren't acting because of dirt held on the police department).
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[–]hcazlock 3 points il y a 13 heures
Yes we definitely shouldn't tailor immigration policy to real world issues....
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[–]RealityOverdrive 4 points il y a 14 heures
You think its racist to deport child rapists?
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[–]joethepro36 8 points il y a 19 heures
Which is genuinely racist and just makes their side look bad.
How? You have a problem group and can deal with said group as a whole for the greater good of society. I mean just lowering levels of migration from places where people are far more likely to go on to commit rape in the UK seems perfectly reasonable to me. If that's racist so be it, I'm not going to pretend the world is a perfect place of atomised individuals where groups are irrelevant.
Productive discussions that come from a position of being unable to take basic actions aren't going to go anywhere are they? End up with half a year of talking and no results.
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[–]Scaphism92 12 points il y a 18 heures
Because you're looking at the perpetrators and lumping it with your existing issues with the "problem group" to justify reducing people from this group immigrating to the uk.
But in the process you're not really paying attention to other factors. The key facts behind Telford are yet to come out but it seems to share a lot of similarities to Rotherham, similarities aside from the Religion the perpetrators may have believed in based on the cultural group they part of. Underfunded areas mixed with incompetence from police, council and social services allowed child abuse activity to flourish.
The authorities turning around and saying "oh uh we didn't want to be politically insensitive so we didn't do anything" has always seemed like a piss poor excuse, especially since child abused being ignored or not handled properly by our authorities doesn't just happen when the perpetrators are muslim or brown. Whoever uses that excuse should be fucking slapped and fired, especially if its the legit reason why they didnt investigate.
Of course this would need a deep look at the flaws in our institutions which some people don't like the idea of.
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[–]forallmyfans2 8 points il y a 13 heures
The original report literally mentions the police destroying evidence. No mention of 'pc gone mad!!!'. Rotherham has had evidence of police involvement and suppression.
Ignoring this just to be racist is utterly mental and shows that someone gives no fucks about the kids and just wants to punish brown people.
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[–]rubygeek 7 points il y a 15 heures
Clearly we should then impose strict restrictions on young men, then, given that young men stands out as one of the most violent and criminal groups in society.
See why we don't tend to purse "problem groups" as a whole, rather than deal with the people actually committing crimes?
If someone makes an argument for an objective way of identifying high risk groups and sanction those groups, then I'd think it would still be quite horrific to collectively punish a whole group, but not racist, but the reality is that when we see people asking for special forms of sanctions against a whole group they tend to immediately leap to conclusions about specific ethnic groups etc. and not even bother to look at whether or not it'd even be the best predictor of the behavior in question.
That makes it very clear what the priorities are, and that it's not about actually dealing with the problem.
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[–]lichkingsmum 7 points il y a 14 heures
...and also a bit dumbfounded when the 1st half of this thread seems to be taken up with posts querying the number of girls raped and the number of times etc. If it were 10 girls raped once and then ignored by the authorities it would be despicable. I cant grasp why people are arguing over the numbers.
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[–]Gripey 7 points il y a 12 heures
Totally standard deflection. what don't you understand about that?
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[–]Nevyn16 34 points il y a 21 heures
Yep, pretty sick of being called xenophobic or racist for trying to have a conversation about this.
I really don't see anyone calling people either for trying to discuss these things is good faith.
And by that I mean actually caring about the victims, rather than just using them as a tool to be a racist bastard.
You see it all the time with things like gay rights. people who don't give a shit, and normally would oppose gay rights, suddenly use that as a stick to beat another minority they don't like more with.
If people want an honest conversation, good, carry on. if they just want to leverage things to promote their bigoted agenda...then no.
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[–]Tekwulf 4 points il y a 12 heures
You see it all the time with things like gay rights. people who don't give a shit, and normally would oppose gay rights, suddenly use that as a stick to beat another minority they don't like more with.
Oh man, the right wing about-face on gay rights has been hilarious to watch. Suddenly the same people who told me gay people are disgusting are concerned that Muslims share that view, and are outraged!
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[–]girlyboyKal 2 points il y a 6 heures
Suddenly the same people who told me gay people are disgusting
I think you’re seeing two different groups of people.
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[–]niftythrow 6 points il y a 12 heures
If this is Xenophobic and Racist then fuck it that is what I am.
I don't care anymore. I want this vile disgusting cancer of a culture removed from the UK.
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[–]biskino 16 points il y a 17 heures
Counterpoint. Every time this is attempted, lots of racists show up and the people who ‘just want to have a conversation’ don’t say anything about them. Also, I’m getting a bit tired of ‘fear of being accused of racism’ as a grab bag excuse for incompetence and disinterest in this matter from authorities.
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[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 12 points il y a 15 heures
grab bag excuse for incompetence and disinterest
I don't believe for one second that if the police force uncover a rape ring of thousands of victims or hundreds of members 'disinterest' or 'laziness' is what puts the brakes on any investigation.
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[–]forallmyfans2 3 points il y a 14 heures
The police were involved in abuse and covering up/threatening people on Rotherham. The sun investigation that inspired this thread even talks about the police destroying evidence? Did you read any of it?
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[–]holston5lots of typos, aging fingers 7 points il y a 14 heures
Yes. It is clear it isn't 'disinterest' or 'laziness' that is fuelling a coverup.
It's the same reason the CPS refused to prosecute in the Justice for Chelsea case. Racial tensions.
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[–]Rob_Kaichin"Insane, for what it's worth." - A very stable genius. 25 points il y a 23 heures
I'm open to a conversation that doesn't begin with "Muslims are" and doesn't end with "all rapists" unless the middle of the sentence is entirely exculpatory.
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[–]niftythrow 13 points il y a 12 heures
Please give be a benefit of Muslim immigration to this country that we cannot get from other places.
I would replace every single Muslim with Sikhs if I had the choice.
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[–]TheExplodingKitten/r/UK_libertarians 41 points il y a 23 heures
Muslims disproportionately posses a culture incompatible with our society and this needs a severe crack down.
It's not even all Muslims. It's more of a cultural thing. It isn't European Muslims or even North African Muslims. It's Asian Muslims.
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[–]jambox888 31 points il y a 22 heures
The form of the crime is probably something to do with the cultural background of the criminals and that has helped make this an extremely virulent form of organised crime. It's somewhat similar to the Italian Mafia in the states in that way.
On the other hand, the elephant in the room isn't the ethnicity or religion of the perps but the reversal in social progress that allows it to continue. Basically, any kind of crime you can think of, including CSE, was way more prevalent in the past, in all societies and geographies. (It's at a historical low now because the general trend is inexorably towards lower crime, longer lives and better health all around - this isn't a recent trend and can be traced back to ancient Greece and even further back.) Now, the huge historical reduction in crime and violence is due to mainly two factors (this is a simplification but you get the gist): 1) improvements in living standards - this is sort of a circular argument but the two effects form a virtuous circle 2) the state taking an interest in and getting in between individual citizens. (Most people think there's a strong correlation between severity of punishment and recidivism but actually it's mostly just detection rate.)
To put it another way, regardless of ethnicity or religion, you simply don't get many people with good jobs, nice houses and happy kids engaging in organised crime - they have too much to lose. This is known as "cads vs dads". It's trivial to show that socioeconomic factors are far more important predictor of any kind of criminal behaviour than anything else.
So, the reason why it's mendacious of people like Lord Pearson to point the finger at a religion and/or ethnicity is because he knows all this full well, or at least should do if he's supposed to be in government. It's the same with Trump pointing the finger at blacks or mexicans - nobody in their right mind believes that inner city crime is due to anything except socioeconomics and quality of public services. They're just trying to drum up support.
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[–]PM_ME_YOUR_CATS_GRL 11 points il y a 19 heures
Your argument is flawed. You can't disassociate ethnicity or religion from socioeconomic progress. While each has its own path of progression they are intrinsically linked. The whole bases of what 'progress' looks like is defined in part by deep rooted aspects of culture and historically, religion too. ( you even hint at this yourself then disassociate it for some reason - I don't get the logic)
nobody in their right mind believes that inner city crime is due to anything except socioeconomics and quality of public services
I'm sorry but, its not one dimensional at all. If what you're saying were true then simply throwing money at it would be the solution. It's not.
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[–]AugustusM 2 points il y a 14 heures
So, actually, this aspect of geo-sociology is quite fascinating. Essentially, the question we are asking here is why are some countries rich and some countries poor?
Personally, I am quite convinced by this general theory that looks at inclusive economic and political institutions as the driving factor of economic prosperity. You are right, in a general sense, to say that culture, religion etc play a role in this, but that theory always tends to break down and we find exceptions to it. Consider for example that for a long time the Chinese where stereotyped as lazy and unproductive, but now with China's industrial boom we find ourselves talking about the "Chinese work ethic".
Secure political representation and economic opportunity are, to me, the driving factors that will outweigh any cultural or religious or historical factor simply because I struggle to imagine any human being that doesn't want to better themselves and their family. regardless of race, culture or whatever.
Anyway the point is that ethnicity and religion et all being correlated to lower socio-economic status typically is indicative of a failure of inclusive societal structures rather than being caused by their culture (and certainly not by ethnicity). All across history and the globe, we can see that vastly different cultures and ethnicities have both prospered and failed based on political and economic structure alone. There are examples of groups that are divided only by a political border or a river crossing but with vastly different economic outcomes.
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[–]Rob_Kaichin"Insane, for what it's worth." - A very stable genius. 24 points il y a 23 heures
Asian Muslims.
To my understanding it is some subcultures of Pakistani citizens.
It seems sensible to drilldown to the problem area before we start trying to 'solve' it.
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[–]TheExplodingKitten/r/UK_libertarians 20 points il y a 23 heures
It isn't just Pakistani. Bangladeshi Muslims are normally involved too.
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[–]Rob_Kaichin"Insane, for what it's worth." - A very stable genius. 7 points il y a 22 heures
East Pakistan, West Pakistan
/s
Let's take down the criminals; justice, not vengeance.
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[–]rubygeek 5 points il y a 15 heures
East Pakistan, West Pakistan /s
With diplomatic finesse like that, have you considered applying for the post of Foreign Secretary? You'd clearly be less offensive than Boris.
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[–]oguz-38 2 points il y a 11 heures*
It's not even an Asian thing since there are no Iranian, Turkic or Indonesian people doing this. It's what it is, a problem with some Pakistani people.
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[–]VisovariMiddle Englander 5 points il y a 9 heures
racist
If you can convert or apostatise from it, it's not a race.
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[–]DaveChildLib Dem / Pro EU 5 points il y a 14 heures
pretty sick of being called xenophobic or racist for trying to have a conversation about this.
It depends how you word it. It's usually pretty clear if someone is just looking to stir up racial tensions or if they are interested in the facts.
Pointing out that British Asians make up a disproportionate number of grooming gang convictions is entirely fair. Pretending this is an exclusively Muslim problem, or that it's targetting just white girls, or that there aren't British people and/or white people doing this, or any one of a dozen other common misconceptions, is likely to lead to accusations like that.
Framing the problem to suit a political agenda helps nobody. The situation is awful enough without the racists and xenophobes co-opting it and turning it into an excuse to divide society further.
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[+]viscountbongbreath nombre de points du commentaire sous la limite (33 enfants)
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[–]Subtropical_Blues 13 points il y a 14 heures
What do we as a country actually do about this?
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[–]netsecwarrior 28 points il y a 14 heures
A good start would be taking victim's complaints seriously. All these stories seem to include "we went to the authorities and they did nothing"
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[–]Mother0fChickens 7 points il y a 11 heures
We also need to have a talk about religion and what route it is taking. Unregistered schools are popping up all over the place teaching stuff that has no place in a modern society. We need to be able to say that this is not acceptable and not allow anyone to use religion, culture or tradition as an excuse.
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[–]hcazlock 8 points il y a 12 heures
Ban all immigration from Pakistan/Bangladesh for a start. If you allow it to continue you are condemning future children to this abuse. Unless you are incredibly wealthy you should not be allowed to move here from a third world country, end of.
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[–]BigLenEuler 20 points il y a 14 heures
Inaction in these cases plays into the far-right's hands.
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[–]hcazlock 10 points il y a 12 heures
Many of the people you are calling "far right" were the first to try and raise this issue and that is the reason they are now being called "far-right".
Wise up and think for once.
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[–]BigLenEuler 7 points il y a 12 heures
Read my post history; I don't think I have ever labled anyone far-right. I think you have misunderstood my comment, I'm saying that doing nothing about this [the rape gangs], gives the far-right powerful tools to radicalize people. I don't for a second believe that everyone who has been highlighting this issue is far-right.
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[–]HipPocket 2 points il y a 6 heures
Lord Pearson posed for a photo with "Tommy Robinson" outside the Palace of Westminster after asking his question.
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[–]MrZakalweEverything is historic. 6 points il y a 12 heures
Yup. If mainstream society wont deal with a fear that gets right down to the murky roots of humanity as a species (mass rape by the other) it's all going to get messy (or messier, anyway).
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[–]FrozenToast1 41 points il y a 21 heures
They were Pakistani Muslims.
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[–]DaveChildLib Dem / Pro EU 26 points il y a 14 heures
No, they were a pretty comprehensive mixture of races:
In 2011 CEOP published an analysis of possible offenders who had been reported to it for “street grooming and child sexual exploitation”. CEOP said that offenders in these cases often act in groups.
It analysed over 1,200 of these possible offenders and found the vast majority were male. Around 30% were white, 28% Asian and 3% black and 38% were unknown. When CEOP looked only at a group of around 940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
Another study by CEOP from 2013 looked at data collected from 31 police forces. It found that of around 300 offenders whose ethnicity was provided and who were part of groups targeting children based on their vulnerability (rather than because they had a specific sexual interest in children), 75% had been categorised as Asian and 17% as white, 5% were listed as black and 3% as Arab.
Of the groups who did target children based on a sexual interest in them (fewer than 20 people studied) all were white.
We gain nothing by pretending it's one ethnic group.
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[–]TheBigJV 21 points il y a 13 heures
Perhaps I'm being an idiot (and please correct me if I am) but wouldn't we expect the majority of crimes, regardless of crime, to be perpetrated by someone who is white, considering we're a majority white population?
If we look at:
940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
Considering the UK's population is about 7% Asian and 89% White, does that not show it's disproportionate offending by Asians? As it's so much higher than their population %.
Although, there's an argument to be had about detection rate distorting it.
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[–]DaveChildLib Dem / Pro EU 5 points il y a 13 heures
Yes, it's completely fair to point out that Asians are heavily overrepresented. There's a big difference between that, and pretending it's only Muslims or only Asians.
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[–]knot_city 16 points il y a 9 heures
Yes, it's completely fair to point out that Asians are heavily overrepresented. There's a big difference between that, and pretending it's only Muslims or only Asians.
It's overwhelmingly Asians, particularly those from Pakistan. You're trying to analyse this based on raw numbers instead of per head of population.
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[–]scud121 13 points il y a 13 heures
But you are though. These children are targeted because they are vulnerable, and in those cases it's 75% asian.
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[–]FiteMeNow 2 points il y a 8 heures
white
Interesting how it doesn't specify British whites.
It's clear that those whites are Turkish/Albanian/North African.
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[–]FriendlyCommie 10 points il y a 11 heures
"Your wives are farmland for you; use them however you wish." Surah 2:223
Where do these Muslim men get their ideas from?
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[–]dingoperson2Love of Europe, none of EU 20 points il y a 16 heures
Let's say a young white girl dressed in skimpy clothing somehow was spending a lot of time by herself in the Pakistani countryside.
How would she be treated? Very likely very badly.
The people who would treat her that way, have been transported to the UK.
Results predictable and unsurprising.
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[–]thezeeshanarif 10 points il y a 17 heures
Just going to leave this here https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/
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[–]Awesomefusion 9 points il y a 15 heures
In 2011 CEOP published an analysis of possible offenders who had been reported to it for “street grooming and child sexual exploitation”. CEOP said that offenders in these cases often act in groups.
It analysed over 1,200 of these possible offenders and found the vast majority were male. Around 30% were white, 28% Asian and 3% black and 38% were unknown. When CEOP looked only at a group of around 940 offenders that it had better information for it found around 38% were white, 32% were unknown, 36% were Asian and 3% were black.
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[–]CarpeCyprinidaeSarah Champion for Labour leader 24 points il y a 15 heures*
So in fact proving that Asian men are disproportionately likely to be child rapists? Given that they are no more than 4% of the population but over a third of the offenders?
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[–]thezeeshanarif 7 points il y a 15 heures*
The dude that posted the CEOP excerpt very carefully neglected to post the bit right after, where they say themselves that the data is too patchy to draw conclusions from.
8% of the population in 2011, and that numbers probably gone up.
Actually, the sample size is too small to prove anything, and there have been questions raised regarding bias. It's all in the fullfact article, but let me just drop it here too:
Researchers point out that the disproportionate representation of people of Asian ethnicity in studies on grooming gangs may be caused by a number of things including: bias in the collecting of information, the high profile nature of similar cases, and small sample sizes. This might mean, for example, that when recording information about offenders or suspected offenders, the organisations involved are more likely to record ethnicity if the person is Asian. Or it might mean that, because they had seen similar cases in the media, child protection organisations look out for specific types and patterns of grooming and abuse more than others leading to similar types of groups being caught.
A large proportion of cases in these studies also have the ethnicity of the offender recorded as unknown, so this could potentially affect the reliability of the information on ethnicities that we do know. In many of the cases no more information was known other than that the offender was described as Asian. This could cover a wide variety of ethnicities and nationalities like Chinese, Pakistani, Indian as well as a range of British-Asian ethnicities, depending on the study.
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[–]Victuswolf 8 points il y a 14 heures
disproportionate representation
That's whats already happened with police refusing to take action in cases in the 90's and early 2000 because they feared being labeled racist.
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[–]CarpeCyprinidaeSarah Champion for Labour leader 3 points il y a 13 heures
It is a good point that if a catch up of historical offences is taking place we should compare the Pakistani-ness of current defendants to the average ethnicity of convicted cases over say 20 years though. If there was more willingness to prosecute white offenders in the past then the current average is skewed
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[–]crocodile-logic 8 points il y a 14 heures
At first glance this would seem to suggest that the group identified as Asian are overrepresented (compared to the proportion of Asian people in the general population) but CEOP said that the data was too inconsistent to draw “national conclusions” from.
Literally the next paragraph.
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[–]rollthreedice 4 points il y a 15 heures
I think you should actually read the whole article you posted. It doesn't say what you seem to think it does.
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[–]thezeeshanarif 5 points il y a 14 heures
I know haha, that's why I posted it :) just trying to bring some objectivity
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[–]Maybe_Im_Really_DVAMUH BREXITEERS 20 points il y a 15 heures
Love how so many people on this sub try to actively bury their hands or go out of their way to defend Islam, it's so weird for me to see. Islam gets brought up but everyone's saying what about white people? Why are so many white people so self depreciating yet will scream the praises of Islam from the rooftops.
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[–]iloomynazi"Metropolitan Elitist" 9 points il y a 12 heures
I’m always accused for ‘standing up for Islam’, but actually I hate it. It’s backwards and barbaric, as is every other religion in my opinion.
What I do stand up for though is Muslim people. Because when people say ‘can’t we have a conversation about this without being called racist’, they invariably then go on to say something racist.
By all means, educate the police on this particular style of crime and the circumstances around it so they can better intervene in future. Let’s discuss policy changes that will better enable the police to do their jobs. Don’t support actions that will end up unfairly targeting innocent individuals based on their race. That’s the line between ‘having a conversation’ and being racist.
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[–]80sWasteman 16 points il y a 15 heures
Because some people are in denial that parts or multiculturalism have failed.
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[–]jonnyhaldane 3 points il y a 6 heures
It's called 'Islamophilia'
Meaning 'look how virtuous I am'
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[–]niftythrow 4 points il y a 11 heures
These plebs are usually University students (a progressive breeding ground) or Middle class who living in 99% white areas.
These people are 1 step above the actual rapists in my opinion.
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[–]Doki_Yuri_is_Life 17 points il y a 23 heures
About fucking time
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[–]AdamantiumHip 2 points il y a 7 heures
This is the fault of pc culture, where fear of being branded racist has made that more of a crime than actual rape.
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[–]stevenfries 27 points il y a 23 heures
What if we talk about the actual crime? Instead of going on tangents about religion?
People have been talking about Islam at leat for 2 years on this sub and they didn’t get anywhere useful.
Are white people racist because they post videos online of them having sex with Asian underage girls? Or are they pedophiles?
Find ways to prevent these crimes from happening again, find the perpetrators. Stop creating unnecessary distractions over unfeasible theories.
All this nonsense of trying to use a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Nobody will agree to expel 2.5 million Muslims from the UK because of 10, 100 or even 1000 did. Get some sense of reality.
And the bullshit of immigration control does nothing to find the criminals already living here.
Same way we won’t have knife crime laws for blue people if we find there are more knife crimes from blue people than orange people. Orange people still need to be answering to the same laws.
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[–]CrabAcheLabour 14 points il y a 22 heures
Obviously this shouldn't be put on the feet of all Muslims (after all, it's largely been restricted to a certain Muslim community, so it seems harsh to blame, say, East London Bengalis) but I feel the ubiquitous denunciations of Kaffir is one attitude that doesn't help.
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[–]lordfoofooSouth Park Neutral - I hate all of 'em 8 points il y a 13 heures
What if we talk about the actual crime? Instead of going on tangents about religion?
What if the religion advocates the crime?
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[–]StopHavingAnOpinion 12 points il y a 23 heures
What if we talk about the actual crime? Instead of going on tangents about religion?
Thats like saying 'lets talk about the crime, not the white supremacists/nazi's/feminists/other group who keep doing it, you can't ignore the common patterns or motives behind them.
The reason it is always about this is because these statistics are over proportionally in the Muslim community, a thing that most of the 'racists' had been saying for some time, and we chose to ignore these cases exactly for that reason.
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[–]RoglopsAnarcho-Communist 23 points il y a 17 heures
Haha weird equivalence of feminists with nazis.
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[–]JimRayCooper 12 points il y a 22 heures
Thats like saying 'lets talk about the crime, not the white supremacists/nazi's/feminists/other group who keep doing it.
Their Christian belief or cultural upbringing isn't put front and centre though.
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[–]FactuallyInadequate 14 points il y a 22 heures
I think it's a push to compare a religion with self defined extremist groups, especially when it has millions of peaceful members while white nationalists/Nazis/feminists will normally admit they're openly hostile. Yes, there's a large group of Muslims who are part of the problem but not all of them. Just like there's a large group of white people who do the exact same but I'm sure you don't.
Rape is a problem. Cases not being taken seriously is a problem. Religion isn't the problem, when given the chance some men are just pure filth, whether they're religious or not.
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[–]Ciccone 9 points il y a 13 heures
Nazis and feminists really don't need to be in the same category here dude.
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[–]Awesomefusion 6 points il y a 16 heures
Religion is literally a self defined group though
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[–]kindamaybenot 7 points il y a 16 heures
“Let’s talk about the white male stats on crime”. No one says that because you’re looking at those people as more than just their sex/race/religion. You’re under simplifying a more complex issue. If a white Christian guy commits a crime you wonder if they had a drug problem or what their motive was, a Muslim person commits a crime and everyone always thinks they did because of religion. It’s not reality
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[–]OmNomDeBonBon༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ Mandelson take my energy ༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ 13 points il y a 23 heures*
Interesting that he mentions Sikhs and says the rapists were Muslims, instead of specifying that they were Pakistanis. Could it be that Lord Pearson is doing what the right have always done - pandered to Sikhs by demonising Muslims, so that they have some brown supporters they can refer critics to? They also exploit the fact that there's a lot of racism between Sikhs and Muslims (both directions).
Is he also ignorant of the fact that sexual abuse is just as prevalent in Sikh households as Muslim households?
Let's call a spade a spade: these are almost entirely Pakistani grooming gangs, and even then they're from specific areas of Pakistan. We can't be expected to understand Pakistani geography so I think "Pakistani grooming gangs" is a suitable description.
How do we solve the problem? Jail everybody found guilty of grooming for 10 years per rape, deny benefits to the wives (who are often complicit) and take their kids into care. Sick of soft UK sentencing - these people should have accumulated sentences of 100+ years yet they seem to get off with 5 or 10 years.
Edit: I'd also strip them of British citizenship if they're naturalised, as a lot of the older ones are. What should follow is a swift deportation back to their country of origin.
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[–]NothingSurprisesMeChief Door Opener @ 10 Downing St 🚪 48 points il y a 23 heures
Some of the Telford lot are already out of prison, and now the family of one of the victims is apparently under threat from having their home petrol bombed.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5493247/amp/Father-murdered-Lucy-Lowe-told-careful-threat.html
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[–]joethepro36 3 points il y a 19 heures
Typical, death penalty for child rape would solve this.
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[–]E7Polar 3 points il y a 14 heures
I don't know why you are being downvoted they ruiend somebody's life.
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[–]SombreDusk 23 points il y a 23 heures
why is it so hard to believe sikh girls were targeted?
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[–]sausageparty2015 5 points il y a 9 heures
We should have listened to the fucking Sikhs in the 80s
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[–]TheWhiteEnglishLionnationalist - Third way 2 points il y a 8 heures
We should also take a page out of their book and form groups to defend the girls.
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[–]GSPsLuckyPunch 19 points il y a 23 heures
Could it be that Lord Pearson is doing what the right have always done - pandered to Sikhs by demonising Muslims, so that they have some brown supporters they can refer critics to? They also exploit the fact that there's a lot of racism between Sikhs and Muslims (both directions)
I think you are being extremely cynical.
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[–]lordfoofooSouth Park Neutral - I hate all of 'em 5 points il y a 13 heures
Because some weren't Pakistani, like the Somali gang, the common denominator is Islam. It's just that Pakistani's make up a large proportion of that population.
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[–]stevenfries 4 points il y a 23 heures
Why a specific part of Pakistan?
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[–]OmNomDeBonBon༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ Mandelson take my energy ༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ 49 points il y a 23 heures*
Parts of Pakistan are extremely tribal and inbred. It makes no sense to molest a local Pakistani girl because chances are you're related to her in some way, and you risk being killed if found out. She tells her parents, the dad rounds up the "elders" and has you firebombed.
Much easier for that kind of scumbag to pick on poor working-class white girls. Let's face it, anybody whose parents let them hang out after hours for extended periods of time hasn't come from a great home. What's the risk to the groomer in that scenario? Bugger all, because the parents are fucking useless and the kids are often in care.
I'm pretty sure if you looked into the backgrounds of these groomers they'd all originate from areas of Pakistan which were extremely tribal. It's also why Pakistanis in the UK are at much higher risk of congenital diseases than other minorities or the general population; cousin marriage leads to lots of disabled babies, and most Pakistanis in the UK come from areas with extremely high levels of inbreeding, especially first-cousin marriage.
The tribal aspect is what drives this kind of mass grooming. People don't seem to understand, but there's a damn good reason why it's extremely rare to find an Indian grooming gang, a Bangladeshi grooming gang, a Jewish grooming gang, a Polish grooming gang etc. in the UK despite high levels of those people residing in the UK...it's because those countries/communities aren't tribal and don't have high degrees of inbreeding which leads to rapists looking outside the group for victims.
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[–]Blussy96Centre-right, probably 10 points il y a 20 heures
70% come from a town called Mirpur, which is socially backwards even by Pakistan's standards.
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[–]CarpeCyprinidaeSarah Champion for Labour leader 8 points il y a 16 heures
Now let's be fair here. Mirpuri society is socially backward even by hyena-pack standards..
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[–]CrabAcheLabour 22 points il y a 22 heures
Literally they're all from the villages around Mirpur that were flooded when Pakistan made the Mangla Dam. At the time, the UK was suffering a worker shortage and so the government agreed to take the displaced Kashmiris as a bit of cheap labour.
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[–]OmNomDeBonBon༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ Mandelson take my energy ༼ つ ◕ _ ◕ ༽ つ 15 points il y a 20 heures
Huh, TIL. Certainly explains everything. We didn't get the Pakistani academics, the scientists, the engineers, the poets...we got the worst of the worst, the socially conservative village dwellers who are still mentally in the 13th century.
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[–]Redplant96Reads Burke's wikipedia page once... 5 points il y a 19 heures
I'm not sure which way around it is but something like 70-30 are from Mirpur and the rest of from other parts of Pakistan, although I'd be a bit hesitant with:
We didn't get the Pakistani academics, the scientists, the engineers, the poets.
There are a very large number of Pakistanis here and whatever the final count is after these investigations I'm certain it's not going to be some ridiculous stat such as '50% of Pakistanis are rapists', this will definitely be a drop in the bucket, albeit a drop worryingly large relative to every other group.
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[–]34Mbit 7 points il y a 14 heures
'50% of Pakistanis are rapists'
If you want to talk about statistics, how about the 77% employment rate of White British people, and the 54% employment rate of Pakistanis in the UK? How about the 73% employment rate of White British women, and the 39% employment rate of Pakistani women. The same rate is true for Bangladeshis.
Why is roughly 5% of the UK population Muslim, but 14.4% of the Prison population Muslim?
Why do Muslims make up 0.5% of the armed forces population, when they make up 5% of the general population. This is exacerbated considerably when you consider those of poorer backgrounds (like working class white boys) flock to the forces in droves.
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[–]Tamazgha 5 points il y a 14 heures
Am I the only one here that thinks 1 rape victim is already too many? It seems like there need to be thousands before anyone would give a shit, which is horrific to say the least.
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[–]udderstompf 1 point il y a 13 heures
One person with UKIP associations exaggerates the numbers. No doubt this will be used to smear legitimate critics as hysterical, misinformed, misleading sneaks.
It will not work, though. This problem cannot be brushed under the carpet any more. I am glad Pearson is speaking out and I hope more will follow from both Houses.
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[–]ZypheREvolved 2 points il y a 12 heures*
Yes, we can and we will. It is time to deal with it. We will call these men out and their culture of using religion to protect themselves. Perversion and sex with barely teenage girls. Their attitude towards white women.
I've never been racist towards someone but a Pakistani woman was racist about my white skin once. I'm done with minorities being over-protected. If the innocent people of those minorities have an issue with us trying to remove cancer that they should be removing themselves, then they simply have to join us in the shaming of scum. The quicker these communities stop being in denial about their husbands and sons filthy behaviour brought over from their originating country.
The sooner we can find more ways to show them respect.
Until then I will continue being frustrated with minority communities who use religion to protect their entire people as if their skin and faith bond them. That is no different to a gang who is blindly loyal to one another!
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[–]wongieLiberal Remainer - the new Yellow Peril 4 points il y a 11 heures
We can sure talk about Islam and the role religion has played but just as some will see it as veiled racism and so dismiss it so too are those who solely label it a religious problem dismissing the socio-economic factors at play.
If we're to tackle the issue then we have to acknowledge those other factors too. Yes a common denominator is religion, most perpetrators are Muslim but most also have Pakistani backgrounds and most are poor and living/operating in deprived areas that enabled and helped them perpetuate the crimes they committed. If it was simply just a religious problem every Muslim across the country in all sections of society, nevermind the rest of the planet, would be perpetrating such crimes. Clearly that's not the case.
Multifaceted issues require multifaceted approaches rather than simply distilling it to a single problem.
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[–]RoglopsAnarcho-Communist 2 points il y a 17 heures
I am a horrendous lefty here but I don't understand why people are so keen to speak about Islam. Hear me out please, I do come from a position of ignorance and want to understand. For me, this shows how we should focus more on integration, more on education and also more on poverty to help these people properly integrate. I don't really understand why speaking about Islam really helps here since what are we going to do, ban islam? Can someone educate me on some of the reasons why it is important to isolate the religion and how this would help here?
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[–]tomatopathe 20 points il y a 15 heures
I'm pretty center left myself (and half Muslim, although not Pakistani).
I think it's time we accept that there's a certain community of people in Britain that commits these crimes, and that it's not racist to point that out (the truth isn't racist, sorry), but on the contrary it will be the only way to stop this from happening in the future.
These people, for some reason, happen to be Muslims from a certain region of Pakistan (and not Indian or North African or Iranian Muslims).
I would contend that it's racist to ignore this fact. Men from these communities are, statistically, at a higher risk of committing horrendous crimes against young women and girls.
First, criminal investigations and convictions need to take place, and not short sentences. This is criminal conspiracy to commit mass rape. The thousands of men who have drugged and raped these people need to never see the outside of a prison cell.
Furthermore, the community these men come from (because as we all know these are almost exclusively Pakistani) needs to be investigated, because something is clearly fucked up there. That does not mean treating all Pakistanis as rapists, but the reasons why this is happening need to be determined and excised. Something is perpetuating this behaviour in that subculture, and that needs to not be given a safe haven anywhere. I suggest we start by looking at ultra conservative nutjob religious figures who perpetuate this idea that non Muslim women are whores fit to be raped.
Lastly, the victims and their families need protecting from retaliation, and any retaliation needs to be dealt with harshly.
I'm a liberal but I refuse not to call a spade a spade.
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[–]Lucifer1903 9 points il y a 16 heures
Maybe integration is difficult because communities tend to self segregate e.g. Someone from group A is more likely to choose to live in an area where many other group A people live rather than move into a group B or C area.
Integration cannot happen when people are segregated, even if it's self segregation.
That's just my thoughts on the matter though.
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[–]hungoverseal 5 points il y a 9 heures
I'll preface this that I consider Islam and Muslims to be separate and I'm going to be taking a stab at Islam here, not Muslims.
Islam is so much more than a religion. It's a political, moral, legal, cultural system and more importantly an identity. If you feel like you're not a Brit, you need an identity. Islam is an incredibly strong one which these people have historical ties to. With the identity is imported all of the other stuff.
There's now two issues: 1) In-group, out-group morality. 2) Importation of culture and values from unstable and undeveloped areas of the world.
To do something horrible to someone else you usually have to dehumanize them. One way of doing that is by creating in-groups and out-groups. If you look at say the British and European legal systems they take great care to prevent minority groups from being maliciously targetted. A lesson learned in history from hundreds of years of big society and ever-improving legal systems. Islam does not have this and the people in rural Pakistan do not have this. Strong and fair legal and justice systems are what allows free, open and liberal cultural to thrive.
So you have a population that is relatively free, open and liberal. You have a smaller population within that society that has it's own identity and rejects the concept of free, open and liberal. It does not respect the societies legal system or values or culture. It's then very easy to dehumanise members of that society to justify your own ego and your own vices, cruelty or malice.
In terms of practical things we can do. The first is taking all religion off a pedestal, banning religious schools altogether and improving education.
The second is to really promote enlightenment and western liberal values hard within our society rather than thinking about tea, scones and Waterloo.
The third is to help give immigrants an identity other than Islam. You won't be able to remove the Islamic identity nor really should we. More a higher identity. Like being a fan of your club in football but a fan of football also.
The fourth is to actively try and liberalise and humanise Islam by funding and promoting the Muslims pushing that agenda rather than funding the hateful fucks in Saudi Arabia etc.
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[–]knot_city 3 points il y a 9 heures*
For me, this shows how we should focus more on integration, more on education and also more on poverty to help these people properly integrate. I don't really understand why speaking about Islam really helps here since what are we going to do, ban islam? Can someone educate me on some of the reasons why it is important to isolate the religion and how this would help here?
If we get a wide spread admittance that multiculturalism is a failed policy and should no longer be pursued then we can begin to address the problems you outline. We've created multiple ingroup outgroup societies within our borders and it's time for the people who supported that policy and especially those who encouraged it to share a portion of the blame for the damage its done.
You can't integrate people into British society if you encourage them to settle with other immigrants in certain parts of a city. You institutionally rob them of the ability to feel part of our society, which is particularly damaging to second generation migrants who don't have the benefit of the identity their parents have.
Mass immigration even with the best policy underpinning it is a disaster. Mass immigration with a policy of multiculturalism is one step worse.
People make this about Islam because they see how easy it is to draw the stories and morals in the Quran and Hadith to the actions of these men. Islam is the base of their culture, to the same degree that Christianity was the base of ours a century ago. It's easier to make this about Islam than it is to make it about brown skinned people for Pakistan because one gets you abused as a racist and the other simply as 'Islamophobic'. They are both identifiers that accurately distinguish the perpetrators from the general population.
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[–]Awesomefusion 8 points il y a 16 heures
what the fuck does poverty have to do with raping girls?
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[–]RealityOverdrive 2 points il y a 14 heures
Its the left insistence on mass immigration that has caused this mess
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[–]a_nice_young_manNot like this... not like this 5 points il y a 13 heures
Importing people from the third world is importing third word problems
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[–]AoyagiAichou 2 points il y a 13 heures
For me, this shows how we should focus more on integration, more on education and also more on poverty to help these people properly integrate.
How can you do that when at the same time, a lot of people think "communities" are a great thing whist the very concept is directly contrary to integration?
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