Your islam is not islam. Or you are making takkyia. (Discussions Muslims-Non muslims)

M : most of what I see spoken by the Muslims of the park come from their secular perspective in Islam. for example Shamsi is Salafist . and Salafist guys have problems with inventions بدع .. and that lead them to anything they dislike they tell you that it's an invention although it could be based on the Quran and Sunnah and Hadeeth. and they over do it in same sense God speaks about the Jews in the Quran. I stay away from dealing religion with such people. maybe i would do anything else but not religion. they are not moderate. Islam is moderate وسطي.

What you really need Kalam is to pickup and meet A true Sheikh , i.e a true scholar, someone who graduated from the Egyptian university called Al Az-har الازهر . and the problem solved. why not have a discussion with those mufti we see on the official government TV of Egypt? what are you waiting for?

if someone wanna be a Muslim, he does not need invitation دعوة . The invitation must come from the acts of the Muslims. and this is how Indonesia become Muslim.

find this verse in the Quran and use it as a weapon against the Muslim speakers there (sura 3, verse 159). just use it. they will calm down and i think they will find some more important business than دعوة invitation to Islam.

NM : Your islam is not islam. Or you are making takkyia.

Islam is not moderate. Every infidel will burn in hell - even the infidel who saves a billion muslims !!!

Islam gives the right to lie to infidels to protect islam, to fight the infidels even if they don't attack first (sura 9, verse 29)*, to take their goods, to kill them in this fight, to rape their women and daughters and to enslave them. Islam authorizes paedophila, sex slavery, slavery, murder of the apostate, murder of the so-called hypocrite muslims, i.e. muslims who don't follow the charia rules I just stated.

Sura 3, verse 159 is abrogated. Al Azhar will say the same. Al Azhar condemns the acts of al Qaeda and ISIS but can't excommunicate them and say : these djihadists are not muslims, because they follow the Quran, the hadiths and the Sira and the classical interpretations of al Tabari and Ibn Kathir.

* Qur'an in Context: "Fight Those Who Do Not Believe" (9:29)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHmsL0p6jnI

It's true these salafists are encouraged by some politics and media in the west and by some muslim states and organizations. But according to the sources of islam it's hard to win against them in a discussion. And this salafist interpretation is not so new because this is the interpretation of Mohammed and from the first companions according to the muslim sources. It doesn't start with the rise of the wahabism. It starts from the beginning of islam with the first califes and their reconstruction of islam : new Quran by Othman, hadiths invented to serve political purpose, biography of the prophet written one or two centuries after its presumed death, etc.

NM :

"Age of consent was probably raised for the same reason the Islamic world abolished slavery. Western pressure." (Gregorian) Mauritania, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Lebanon, Sudan, etc. : there are still a lot of slaves (even muslim slaves but especially blacks and hindus) in these muslim countries.

The islamic world has never abolished slavery. Some countries have. But it's not based on islam. I should verify, but I don't think the Islamic Cooperation Organisation has abolished slavery in its islamic declaration of the human rights.

Western pressure is not good these days : Qatar has used numerous workers to build the stadium, but the conditions of work are slavery-like conditions. You don't see a lot of critics of this in the medias. Qatar has spent billions to buy politics and medias in the West and is financing Muslim Brotherhood.

Mauritania : thousands of black muslim slaves. Search for the real number, it's very high.

Sudan (Darfour) : hundreds of thousands of women and children are enslaved by muslim tribes in 1980-1990-2000.

This is not new : islam is spreading in Africa, Asia and Europe by jihad, forced conversions and slavery since 620.

M : That was a different culture back then and ALL ancient societies did weird shit we wouldn't approve of today. Even today the age of consent is as low as 14 in some countries.

NM : So you agree muhammad was not perfect and did weird shit, good, but islam says this behavior is perfect and everyone should do as he does and as you said, we don't approve of that shit today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jCeQ8fX-Q4

NM : Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18: Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother!"

NM : And Momo answered : Wait, I hear something from Allah... You can marry ... the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, ... It's not the exact terms, but it's in the Quran.

The exact quotation of the verse is here :

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Cousin_Marriage_in_Islam

M : Kalam, Your face just shows you are a instigator, that’s all. Let’s be honest now 😏

NM : Excellent argument. So wise. So true. No matter what he can say, he has not a good face.

It's also very convenient. No need to think about it. Just spread this awesome news.

What do you know about honesty? You can't be muslim and honest.

I am used to it. This is the first level of taqya.

if you were honest, you would have quit islam. You can't believe that God is good and perfect and that the Quran is his book at the same time. You can't believe that God is good and perfect and that Mohammed is his prophet and the perfect example of mankind at the same time.

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Islam and Slavery

NM : Blacks are called "Bark", "Barak" (slaves) by some Arabs even if these blacks are muslims. Mohammed had many black, christian, jew and arab slaves. He called blacks raisin heads and said Satan looked like one of his black slaves. See these videos : - The Islamic View of Black Slaves (David Wood) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4KMOfN0Oeo - Muhammad: The White Prophet with Black Slaves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZxH4QYLRQY - How Muhammad Ali Was Deceived by Islam https://youtu.be/sxOM4GrqElw - Bill Warner PhD: Islamic Slavery in Africa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9D7cN4OvGA The story of slavery that we are told never includes the role of Islam. The slaves were captured by jihadists and brought to the coast. We have a detailed record of how this took place. Prosperous regions of Africa were destroyed by the Arab slave traders. Out of the slaves that were captured, only 20% of them ever made to the pens on the coast to be sold. There is an oddity in the language used in historical record. The words Muslim, Islam and jihad are never used, but only referred to. We will never understand the slave trade until we understand the Islamic doctrine of slavery.

M : "He called blacks raisin heads..."
A misquote from one of The Prophets last sermons to the believers. “Upon You is to Follow My Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Rightly Guided Caliphs After Me” Explained by Shaikh Ubaid Ibn Abdillah Al-Jabiri | Salafi Publications Before you is explanation of a statement of the noble Prophet Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, in which the Prophet mentions some mighty principles of the Islamic religion. The hadeeth (prophetic statement) begins with a sermon that caused the Companions of the Prophet to weep and their hearts to tremble. They thought that Allah’s Messenger was about to leave them, so they sought his advice and counsel. He informed them that he has left them upon clear proof, that is so apparent that it’s night is like it’s day! That no one strays from this clarity except that he will be destroyed! The Messenger of Allah, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, further explains that over time differing and controversy will occur between the Muslims. He mentions to them the cure to this differing and separation, that is: Stick to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Rightly Guided Caliphs after me. He continued: Hold on to that with your molar teeth. The Messenger, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, warned the Muslims from innovating in matters of worship in this hadeeth: Be warned of the newly invented matters for verily every newly invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is misguidance, and to obey the Muslims rulers:I advise you with the fear of Allah and to hear and obey (your leaders) even if an Abyssinian slave were to rule over you. The hadeeth is beautifully explained by the Scholar and former teacher at the Islamic University of Madinah Shaikh Ubayd Al-Jaabiree and it has been compiled and presented to you in this book.” Islam Advises to Free the Slave https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX1Hah-zAQQ EUROPEAN LIES ABOUT ABOLITION, ISLAM & SLAVERY EXPOSED BY PROFESSOR RUDOLPH WARE May Allah SWT guide us all.

M : Slavery was practiced before Islam, is practiced still.

Islam advises to free the slave/servant. Qur'an 2 v177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing. QUR'AN 4 v92. Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom. "it is ordained that he should free a believing slave," Q 5 v89. Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful. "give a slave his freedom" Q 9 v60. Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah. and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom. "for those in bondage" Q 58 v3. But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered,- (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. "free a slave" May Allah SWT guide us all.

NM : Look what islam has done to your intelligence and common sense! You are in fact destroying islam by quoting verses which show that slavery is the norm in islam and that the emancipation of slaves is an exception. These are indeed the same verses I would have quoted to back my point. Thank you so much. Q 58 v3 is even advising all muslims to possess a slave in case they should have to divorce and then go back on the words they uttered. It is advised for the slave to become a muslim. Or else he should never be freed. (Qur'an 4 v92) Once again, see these videos : - The Islamic View of Black Slaves (David Wood) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4KMOfN0Oeo - Muhammad: The White Prophet with Black Slaves https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZxH4QYLRQY - How Muhammad Ali Was Deceived by Islam https://youtu.be/sxOM4GrqElw - Bill Warner PhD: Islamic Slavery in Africa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9D7cN4OvGA

M : “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

NM : This doesn't mean Islam has forbidden slavery. On the contrary. This means slavery is perfectly acceptable and normal under islamic rule (charia law). And the interdiction to kill a slave by beating him savagely is an authorization to beat him for hours without killing him. 

The Age of Aisha

NM : Wives of Muhammad: Aisha bint Abi Bakr. Muhammad married at least 15 different women, and he consummated marriages with at least 13 different women. Muhammad's favorite wife, however, was Aisha, the daughter of his best friend, Abu Bakr. Aisha was six years old when Muhammad married her, and she was nine years old when the marriage was consummated. When Muhammad died, Aisha was 18 years old. Since the Qur'an declares that no one can marry Muhammad's wives after him (33: 53), Aisha spent the next 46 years as a widow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyGj-sSaNL4

Website http://www.answeringmuslims.com

M : Noted historian Mohammed bin Jareer Tabari wrote that during the early period, before the advent of Islam, (i.e., Jahiliya period) Hazrat Abu Bukar had married two ladies. The first wife was Qateela, who gave birth to Abdullah and Asma and from his second wife, Umme Roomaan were born Hazrat Ayesha and Abdul Rahman.

فهولاء الاربعة من اولاده وله ومن زوجيه التين سميتها في الجاهلية

The followers of Sabayia sect are ridiculing Hazrat Ayesha (R.A.) by showing her age of as 9 years, but the historian Tabari who is also a Shia, admits that Hazrat Ayesha and other three children were born during the period before the advent of Islam. Even Hazrat Ayesha was born a few months before Prophethood. Her age at the time of departure from her parent's house after her marriage works out to fifteen years.

In the Battle of Uhad, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was seriously injured. According to a tradition found in Bukhari, only two companions of the Prophet (PBUH) were with him. They were Saad bin Abi Waqqaas and Talha bin Obaidullah. A rumour was spread that Prophet Mohammed was martyred. At that time, Hazrat Abu Talha Ansari, the step father of Hazrat Anas was shielding Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and he was telling him not to move from his place.

This was the only Battle during Prophet's (PBUH lifetime in which the Muslims were defeated and 70 companions of the Prophet (PBUH) were martyred. Hazrat Anas (R.A.) narrates that he saw Hazrat Ayesha and Hazrat Umme Saleem. They were fetching water to the injured persons. The task of fetching water could only be undertaken by an experienced woman and not by a young child. It is on record that Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did not permit young boys below 14 years to participate in the Battle. How could he have allowed Hazrat Ayesha to participate in this Battle if she was a child?

All the historians and the scholars are in agreement that Hazrat Ayesha was younger to her elder sister, Hazrat Asma (R.A.) by 10 years. Hazrat Asma (R.A.) expired in 73 A.H. at the age of 100 years. We know that at the time of migration to Madina, Hazrat Asma (R.A.) was 27-28 years old and Hazrat Ayesha must have been 18 years old. At the time of her departure from her parents' house, Hazrat Ayesha (RA) must have been 19 or 20 years old.

Hafiz Ibn-e-Hajar in his book "Takhreeb-ut-Tahzeeb" writes that Asma (R.A.) was alive till 100 years and she expired in 73 A.H. or 74 A.H. Hafiz Ibn-e-Kaseer in his historical treatise "Al-Badaya Wannihya" writes that Hazrat Asma's (R.A.) younger sister is Hazrat Ayesha who is 10 years younger to Hazrat Asma. Hafiz Zuhabi in his book "Seer Elamul nubala" writes that Asma bint Abu Bakar (R.A.) was more than 10 years older than her sister Hazrat Ayesha (R.A.).

Abul Rahman bin Abi-Zannad says that Hazrat Asma(R.A.) was 10 years older than her sister Hazrat Ayesha (R.A.).

May Allah SWT guide us all

NM : Nope. She was married at 6 and raped at 9. It is in Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari. If you stop to have trust in these 2 major islamic sources and reinvent everything based on your own interpretation, you only have got the Qur'an, then goes most of islam. If you are Quran-only, you don't know how much time you must pray or what are the words for the chahada and many other things.